Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 7:31 PM
In his Inaugural Address, President Obama declared that "We remain the most prosperous, powerful nation on Earth." He then outlined a number of ambitious foreign policy goals: forging peace in Afghanistan, lessening the nuclear threat, rolling back the specter of a warming planet, and, of course, defeating terrorism.
As if on cue, Robert Pape of the University of Chicago has a new article in the National Interest that casts some cold water on these lofty sentiments. Pape argues that the United States is in "unprecedented decline," and says that "without deliberate action, the fall of American power will be more precipitous with the passage of time." His argument is straightforward: economic power provides the wherewithal to meet global commitments and advance national interests. America's overall share of gross world product is falling while others’ shares are rising; ergo, our current position of primacy is deteriorating rapidly, in part because other states are rising but also because the Bush administration managed to mismanage foreign policy and fiscal policy simultaneously.
I agree that it's important to match ambitions to resources, but I think Pape overstates his case in three ways:
First, his analysis assumes that relatively small changes in a state's overall share of Gross World Product (GWP) will have dramatic effects on its global position. Thus, he sees a shift from 26 percent of GWP to 21 percent of GWP as an enormous decline in America's position, even when the No. 2 power (China) still has only 9 percent. This looks even scarier when expressed in terms of percentages (Pape estimates that the U.S. share of GWP has declined by 32 percent since 1990 while China’s has risen by 144 percent), because percentage increases are greater when one begins from a low starting point. Equatorial Guinea's share of gross world product is growing at an even faster rate than China's, but that hardly means we should see it as our next great peer competitor.
Second, Pape's analysis slights the effects of the current economic downturn on the other major powers. It's true that we're being hammered, but so are potential rivals like Russia and China and the political consequences may be substantially greater for them than for us. At the very least, a bit of skepticism about long-term trends is in order.
Third, Pape's purely structural analysis ignores the impact of geography on the prospects for anti-American balancing. He and I agree that states have engaged in various forms of "soft balancing" over the past fifteen years, in essence seeking to check U.S. unilateralism by coordinating their diplomatic positions in ways that made it costlier for the United States to act alone. Pape now warns that "American relative power is declining to the point where even subsets of major powers acting in concert could produce sufficient military power to stand a reasonable chance of successfully opposing American military policies."
This is unlikely, especially if Pape is right and we really do face a long-term decline in our relative power position. If our power really does decline, then the major powers of Eurasia will have little reason to balance against us. More importantly, states tend to worry more about neighbors than they do about countries that are far away, even when the latter are very powerful. Given this tendency, it is hard to imagine the EU, Russia, China, India or Japan forging a powerful anti-American coalition; instead, some of these states will continue to want close ties with us to protect them from the others.
The real danger isn't anti-American balancing, therefore, it is the ability of other states to successfully "pass the buck" to a United States whose foreign policy elite continue to see America as the "indispensable nation" that has to get its fingers into every global problem. Other great powers have been happy to let Uncle Sam do most of the heavy lifting, while they concentrate on developing their economies (China) or maintaining generous welfare states (Europe). In this sense Pape is right to warn about our tendency toward overcommitment, and especially against any attempt to redress economic decline through increased military spending and even-greater international activism. Obama's challenge is to get other states to contribute more to achieving objectives we share, and that will only happen if we make it clear that we aren't willing or able to do it all ourselves.
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it is the ability of other states to successfully "pass the buck" to a United States whose foreign policy elite continue to see America as the "indispensable nation" that has to get its fingers into every global problem.
It's not just the neo-conservatives advocating this, although they are the biggest and least realistic advocates for military intervention. You also have the Liberal Internationalists who think the US should use its hegemon status to be a kind of "global cop", promoting stability via humanitarian aid and lots of peacekeeping interventions to prop up failing states.
Standing back and letting the world be as it will while we protect our own and get rich requires a degree of cold-bloodedness on our part. A US much less concerned with getting its finger in every pie would probably have let Bosnia burn in the mid-1990s (although instead of massacres you would have presumably had a civil war, since the US probably would not have maintained the arms embargo it had on Bosnia during much of the period). The same US would almost certainly have dissolved NATO in the early 1990s, and might have encouraged the South Koreans and Eastern Europeans to get nukes rather than asking for US protection after the end of the Cold War.
Stephen, one might add that GDP is a flow variable while say capital is a stock variable. Military capability and indeed political capital accrue over time and are best understood as stock variables thus even relative economic decline (in term of the flow of GDP) is unlikely to translate in the immediate structural changes Pape suggests. I would one additional point. The rise of Brazil may actually be the most important challenge to America's global position. (One should not that America's decline doesn't necessarily constitute an existential threat) The ability of the US to project power abroad has been in part facilitated by its hegemony in the hemisphere. The emergence of a credible rival or at least alternative partner to the US will be noticed elsewhere and taken to mean that American power has seriously declined.
The rise of Brazil if it really significant could definitely mean something. Because states pursue regional hegemony as it is their best bet for survival. Once a state owns its own backyard then it can check other aspiring regional hegemons like we checked Germany , Japan, Soviet Union, and now China through offshore balancing.
If there is another power in our hemisphere then there could be an intense security competition in the future.
Stephen I think your absolutely right, Europe has passed the buck to us for too long to deter Russia. Sure we want make sure no one dominates Europe but we can once again play the role of balancer to prevent a hegemon in Europe. Besides I don't think there has been a European hegemon for at least a millennium. Russia, Germany, France, and UK always end up forming a triple entente to check one or the other. Our policy in the Pacific should be similar.
How can we not accept the buck?
I think Walt usefully addresses the alarmism or conceit of the Pape article. And we should measure our comitments by aa conscious and sensible set of standards and goals. So, here sit with the big navy (though it seems be shrinking) and our default role as guarantor of international shipping, plus virtually the only tried and true professional military (on any large scale) in the West. I wonder how--practically speaking--we can avoid having the Europeans pass the buck to us when it comes to European energy security and even territorial integrity (esp. the Baltics, but possibly elsewhere) contra Russian spasms of hegemony? `Leaving aside the NATO treaty commitments, can we leave Europeans to find a way to look after themselves, i.e., can we sit back and countenance Georgian-style operations in Vilnius, overflights of Warsaw, etc.? Some argue that Russians will weaken and retrench. Let us suppose for the sake of argument they are incorrect.
Yes, but remember Europe has been protecting itself through the age of Napoleon, Bismark, Kaiser, Hitler, Lenin, Stalin without much help from our ground forces/army. They have always been responsible for their own security for centuries. And even during WW1 and WWII Europe had its own great powers we simply stepped in to maintain the balance of power in Europe. It was in the aftermath of WWII that we pretty much took care of their security, because Europe was badly weakened and Soviet Union had the military to conquer. But that is not the case today. Besides Europe is not Georgia, Europe has its latent powers they have enormous wealth and the necessary technological development to form a powerful military, especially in the case of Germany. I don't advocate a precipitous disengagement, but eventually we have to disengage. As the British policymakers once said economy "is the fourth arm of defence" I am not sure that we can sustain our level of commitments around the world, moreover I don't think we need current levels of international activism to maintain our primacy.
I agree with your analysis, but think it's very hard right now to make any kind of predictions because we are entering a period of instability that may shake things up dramatically; so, simply drawing a line from here to five/ten years from now using GDP and other projections isn't going to be very helpful. For example, the ruble looks on the edge of collapse, there could likely be a run on sterling, the UK may end up bankrupt (when that much of a country's wealth comes from finance, and the system collapses...), Eastern Europe could easily default, and European banks could be left holding several trillion dollars of worthless debt. Obama is making noises about forcing China to stop manipulating its currency, and if a trade war breaks out, all bets are off.
One thing is clear, however: we are going to have to reduce our overseas commitments, so ideas like enlarging NATO seem like bad ones. In fact, this (and Afghanistan) should give us the impetus to rethink NATO entirely. The question of whether we can just allow Europe to go on its own is a good one. It's hard to see them in this economic climate being able or willing to make the cuts in their social welfare models necessary to build a decent military. But Russia isn't the threat it was so maybe we can afford to let them solve their own problems.
I advocate a slow and steady decrease in our overall military presence in Europe, not a precipitous decrease that would leave Europe vulnerable. So by that time I don't think the financial crisis should be around.
And believe me , in history, Europe has had several great powers, from UK France Germany Russia and somewhat Italy.
They are capable of their own defense, and they still have the economic wealth to generate a powerful army.
But in all I agree with you.
Considering that most of the Western European (and even many of the central European) states have nuclear power and technology, you'd probably see the ones that haven't already got nukes get them in the advent of a slow US drawdown and detachment from Europe. They could still probably pool money on R & D costs for their military.
I agree with both of you, but don't you think if some of the Europeans states that don't have nukes decide to get them, especially in Eastern Europe, Russia would take that as a serious provocation? If missile defense stirs them up, wouldn't Polish or Estonian nukes really piss them off? (As far as I know, all the ex-Soviet states transferred all their nukes back to Russia, but I could be wrong)
And while they have the wealth to build an army, but the will? There's already some small-scale rioting, and we may be in the very early stages of a long economic downturn. Of course, a lot of this depends on whether the EU manages to stick together through all this. We could even sell them some of our nukes, I guess, considering we already have sharing agreements with some of them.
The will to build a defense is not a problem.
Every state has survival as its primary goal, so if our presence in Europe draws down, Europe has no choice but to build defenses.
The will to build a defense is not a problem.
It is problem according to the SATFP, because "will" is not a SATFP term. "will" is related to "leadership" and "constitution" which are not the terms of the SATFP. So, we don't understand what you are saying according to the SATFP. Can you bring in your theory and show us step by step how you reached above statement from them?
Otherwise we will take it as a _bosh_ talk (idling).
Grand Sen~or
I know you don't like me keep coming back to your Constitution on almost each new topic, but I can't help myself when I observe you basing all your predictions, National worries, FP, IP, other nations catching up with your etc.
I think you guys learned nothing from the Soviet break up. You also don't know what is happening in EU at the moment.
You know that EU trying to unite like you seem to united, but they can't agree on a constitution. And when I've read your comments I observed that this fact has not been noticed by any of you. However it should be an alarming signal for your seems so united states, it should warn you that there is something seriously wrong with your constitution which cannot copied/duplicated any longer. Your constitution is incapable to handle the reality of your people. That is why your people are looking for extra constitutional outlets like Israel Lobby. But rather than learning something from such a political affair amd question your constitution, you are going and questioning your peoples outlets like Israel Lobby.
Guys! please you have a serious problem at home and another reason you don't notice this other competing states also have the same problem for your constitution was a prototype one for theirs. Forget about external economic, military threats these are really minor worries compared what trouble is brewing under your constitution.
There is an opportunity out there for you to renew yourselves by recomposing your constitution to maintain your leadership in an yet unimaginable way for you.
In the end what ever I say here I can't change your constitution and I can't make you change it either, you _will_ to change it, if.....
I am showing you the way out of this bottle that I observe you keep banging your heads to come out. If you don't listen, I lose nothing, if you listen you may gain glory. I am not doing this to gain anything from you. And today if I declare why I am doing this, you wouldn't understand it. So. simply take it like "Grand Sen~or behaves as he does";-> According to your behaviorist theory;->
Grand Sen~or
Lesson from two world wars: Better to stay in Europe
I have noticed that several of the participants in this discussion, comtemplates a US disengangement in Europe, and I suspect that they have their own agenda (as do I ) as to why they think, that a disengagement should take place here, rather than in other areas of the world.
A US withdrawal from Europe will never happen, as long as honest men are women and able to shape US-policies. It is the lesson from two world wars, that it is much better to stay, rather than fight ones way in. The United States of America will continue to have a strong self-interest in anything that goes on in Europe. It is correct than in later years troops have been withdrawn for commitments elsewhere, this is just natural and sensible; instead of having them idle in Europe, they could be put to use elsewhere.
But there is reason for looking at those 'elsewhere's, and examine, if it is not the engangements in places like the Mid East, that have put a strain on US capabilities.
Considering that The Israel Lobby was instrumental in bringing about the war in Iraq, it seems obvious that the most cost-beneficial thing the US could do, is to address this home breed threat, that every now and again draws it into fruitless campaigns, that cannot be won, and which are not in US national interest.
I suspect that 'Blue' is working on a freelance-basis to support the Lobbys efforts, so it is obvious why he wants to detract our attention to Europe, as if US presence here was a problem.
Sure our presence in Europe is good for stability there and preventing conflicts and security competition among European states. As worthy as the goal maybe, it is not practical we cannot be the policeman of the world and we simply can't afford it, our total deficit is reaching 10 trillion.
We should return to our role as the offshore balancer, and not over burden and extend ourselves. Besides Europe is rich enough to cover for their own defense.
What is in our self interest is that there is no hegemon dominating Europe, and we don't need to worry about that the last power to completely dominate Europe was the Roman Empire.
there is no hegemon dominating Europe, and we don't need to worry about that the last power to completely dominate Europe was the Roman Empire.
While you were dreaming you were on rise, Europe's intellectuals were well aware that the West is declining.
That's why the Jews left Europe to join to the rising stars;->Maybe you should follow the traffic flow of the Jews to sense whwre the action is;->
Israel Lobby was not a bad start;->
It looks like you guys don't know much what is happening in Europe and I don't think that your troops are the right team to report you what is going on there.
Grand Sen~or
American foreign policy in Europe was based on the bizarre assumption that without us there would have been a gulag on lake Como. Bizarre or not, it served other functions.
The sooner America "declines" the better, but it needs to do so gracefully.
Alliances of democracies are more stable than a hegemon while also being capable of defeating them. They're also preferable on strictly moral grounds.
There is no conflict between liberalism, in the best sense, and realism;
and exceptionalism is an idealism that has done more harm than good.
---
And since there's an edit function for comments...
Exceptionalism is the philosophical/rhetorical foundation for both American and Israeli policy. The Israel lobby didn't invent that common trait.
I have noticed that several of the participants in this discussion, comtemplates a US disengangement in Europe, and I suspect that they have their own agenda (as do I ) as to why they think, that a disengagement should take place here, rather than in other areas of the world.
I'm choosing Europe because
A. It is highly unlikely that we'll get continental warfare on the level that happened 60 years ago in Europe these days. Nobody has the desire for it, and several of the Western European powers (including France) have nuclear weapons. Others, including Germany, could get them.
B. They have the money to finance a collective EU military, and the technology to do it - they're working on various projects like Eurofighter right now.
C. They have the venue to do it. Various French leaders, going back to De Gaulle and even before that, have talked about colluding with Germany to form an independent European force and source of governance, and the EU is basically asking for that next step.
D. It wouldn't really hurt the US's interests to withdraw. It is highly unlikely that the European Union would cut off trade with us, and we could continue to maintain the security of trade by protecting the shipping routes.
The United States of America will continue to have a strong self-interest in anything that goes on in Europe. It is correct than in later years troops have been withdrawn for commitments elsewhere, this is just natural and sensible; instead of having them idle in Europe, they could be put to use elsewhere.
But that's the point I'm trying to make. We really don't need the full-on military commitment that NATO implies in the advent of a war - a simple nuclear commitment would probably be enough, and would cost much less (plus give us an excuse to put ABM sites in Europe). It would also encourage the Europeans to really take responsibility and form a collective EU military, which I consider to be a Good Thing.
I agree with both of you, but don't you think if some of the Europeans states that don't have nukes decide to get them, especially in Eastern Europe, Russia would take that as a serious provocation? If missile defense stirs them up, wouldn't Polish or Estonian nukes really piss them off? (As far as I know, all the ex-Soviet states transferred all their nukes back to Russia, but I could be wrong)
They did transfer them back, but I don't think that was because Russia was afraid of its neighbors having nukes - they just didn't want nukes to be in the hands of possibly unstable states, and they wanted their hardware back.
I actually don't think the Russians would bitch as much about Poland, for example, having its own nuclear deterrent as they do about the US having a full-on ABM shield site located there. Their main concern about the US's ties with Eastern Europe has been the fear of being encircled by Outside Powers (along with their nuclear arsenal, the back bone of their military power, being neutralized), and Poland having a deterrent wouldn't change that. The Poles aren't so stupid as to start a nuclear war with a much better-armed Russia, and Poland's nukes would essentially write off the possibility of armed intervention by the Russians in Poland (which nobody wants, including the Russians). They'd be defensive in nature, most likely.
I've actually mentioned the idea to a Russian who is bothered by the ABM site, and he didn't mind - although that's anecdotal. The Russians would no doubt bitch about the US encouraging proliferation of nuclear weapons, but that's it.
And while they have the wealth to build an army, but the will? There's already some small-scale rioting, and we may be in the very early stages of a long economic downturn. Of course, a lot of this depends on whether the EU manages to stick together through all this.
If they spread the costs across the entire EU, then they probably could do it.
As for whether or not the EU sticks together, I think it will - or at least the Western European states will stick together. EU-style ties go way back, to the European Coal and Steel Community in the 1950s and the Treaty of Rome in 1967.
In fact, if the EU shed some of its Eastern European and southern European members, it would probably be solidified even more, since the Western European states are much more alike than they are different beyond the obvious language and cultural differences. Brezinzki, for example, in the book America and the World (basically a conversation he had with Brent Scowcroft, moderated by David Ignatius), says that he thinks that if the EU had been formed among the Western Europeans back in the 1950s and 1960s, and kept among those states, it would probably be a single state at this point in time.
I'm not in favor of nuclear proliferation.
But I worry more about Pakistan more than I do about Iran. I worry about Mexico having nukes because it's a mess, not because it borders the US. And I worry about Israel. I worry about some states more than others, not about bogeymen.
That's the issue.
Keep worrying Guys,
when people cannot dare to face the reality at hand, they invent worries all over the places that they can reach. The safest IP is to create enemies via FP and keep the _Nation_ to be worried about external enemies, rather than to learn and improve systems,renew system to manage internal potentials intelligently. That is how the disintegration start. Every culture has a term and the term for the monolithic systems is up. It is waste of time and energy trying to save it. So, be inventive, use intellect to invent systems that work according to the reality of the political affairs.
Saying half truths like "Our Nation composed of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc. and non-believers" will direct your people to no-where. Say the truth, but the whole of the truth to gear up your people to find their way out.
The truth that you don't dare to state is; your monolithic system is geared up to dilute the differences and assimilate them and reduce them to monotony - read your Constitution before you swear on it.
What is wrong with Israel Lobby working for the integration of Jews to protect their cultural identity?
Isn't this natural tendency of any cultural entity?
Why do you need to shy away Jews from that, rather than encourage other cultural entities, happened to be trapped in your land as a result of your pseudo concept of State according to your constitution, to integrate with their members around the world?
How long do you think that this tyranny of yours on your own people will last?
You should invest on Israel Lobby activities and release other cultural entities from the prison (the straight-jacket) you built around them via your Constitution. You should hail Israel Lobby as the front runner of the Freedom of Cultural Entities (which I call socio-politico-economic entity (SPEE) who aim to integrate their members all around the World.
Why can't you break the artificial barriers you built around your people as a result of your useless concept of State?
Why can't you let the SPEEs within your pseudo state make their own laws and organize their lives and integrate with their members all around the world according to their laws rather than (like the Jews do in this desprate state) create pilot pseudo entities like Israel?
What are you waiting for? To get completely consumed by your internal and external paranoid concept of State?!
Grand Sen~or
Stephen M. Walt is the Robert and Renée Belfer professor of international relations at Harvard University.
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