Posted By Stephen M. Walt Share

Dan Drezner is skeptical about trying to convince Iran to forego its nuclear program, and asks us realists: "Why on God's green earth would Iran ever accede to an agreement whereby it gives up any autonomy in its nuclear program?"

I'll take the bait.

To begin with, at this point I don't think it is possible to persuade Iran to give up full control of the nuclear fuel cycle. They've committed a lot of money and prestige to acquiring this capacity, the program is popular domestically, and it is legal within the confines of the NPT. So if our bottom line is for them to abandon enrichment, etc., we're almost certainly going to fail.

Our goal, instead, should be to convince Iran that it is better off not developing nuclear weapons, because that’s the issue we really care about. This means not enriching uranium to weapons grade, not reprocessing spent reactor fuel to extract bomb-making material, and not building or testing an actual device. Obviously, Iran would have to agree to sufficiently thorough inspections to ensure compliance.   

I don’t know if it's possible to achieve this goal, but here's how I'd try.

First and foremost, the United States has to take the threat of military force and regime change off the table. Why? Because that's the main reason why Iran might like a nuclear deterrent in the first place. From Tehran's perspective, they have three nuclear powers in their neighborhood (Pakistan, India, and Israel), and U.S. troops on two sides (in Iraq and Afghanistan). U.S. naval forces patrol the Iranian Sea and Persian Gulf, and it is the stated policy of the U.S. government -- the world's strongest military power -- to seek the removal of the current Iranian regime. Indeed, we are reportedly engaged in various covert operations there already. Iranians can see that Saddam Hussein is dead and buried but Kim Jong Il is not, and they know one of the reasons why. They also know that Muammar al-Qaddafi agreed to give up his own WMD programs only after the Bush administration agreed not to try to overthrow him. Under these circumstances, it would be surprising if Iran wasn't interested in its own deterrent.

This means that the Obama administration's likely approach ("bigger carrots and bigger sticks," as outlined by special envoy Dennis Ross) is wrong-headed. We may need to think up different inducements, but bigger sticks (e.g., stronger sanctions) sends the wrong message, and repeated statements that military force is still "on the table" only gives Tehran additional incentive to master the full fuel cycle and then proceed to weaponize. If we are serious about diplomacy (and not simply looking for a pretext to use force later), Step 1 has to be reducing Iran's perceived need for a deterrent capability of its own. And as a number of Iran experts have already argued, the best way to do that is to pursue a comprehensive settlement of the key security issues that presently divide us.

Second, we need to explain to Iran that possessing a known nuclear weapons capability is not without its own costs and risks. Today, if a terrorist group somehow obtained a nuclear weapon and then used it, we would not suspect Iran of having provided it and they would face little risk of retaliation. Why not? Because we know they don’t have any weapons right now. But imagine how we might react a decade hence, if we knew that Iran had built a few nuclear weapons and some terrorist group whose agenda was somewhat similar to Iran's managed to explode a bomb somewhere in the world, or even on American soil? Under those terrible circumstances, Tehran would have to worry a lot about U.S. retaliation, even if it had nothing whatsoever to do with the attack. Nuclear forensics is hardly perfect (or so my physicist colleagues tell me) and the United States has been known to shoot first and ask questions later in the past. (I'd remind Iranian officials that former Deputy Sec/Def Paul Wolfowitz recommended attacking Iraq less than a week after 9/11, and we eventually did invade that country, even though it had no WMD and had nothing to do with al Qaeda's attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon). So Iran should not be confident that we'd act with precision and restraint in the aftermath of a nuclear terrorist attack, and that concern ought to give them pause about whether joining the nuclear weapons club is a net plus.

I'd also point out to them that acquiring nuclear weapons will encourage other states in the Middle East to follow suit. Given that Iran has a lot more latent power potential than its neighbors in the Gulf, it should prefer to confine the competition there to the conventional realm, where its larger population and considerable economic potential will inevitably give it considerable influence.  

Thus, from a purely realist perspective, Iran might actually be better off with the "Japan option": possessing the latent capability to build nuclear weapons if circumstances required, but avoiding the costs and risks by refraining from exercising that option. If we want to convince Tehran to forego nuclear weapons, therefore, our diplomatic efforts ought to focus on explaining this situation to our Iranian counterparts, instead of merely brandishing bigger sticks or waving bigger carrots.

It is impossible to know if this strategy would work, but it is worth remembering that as far as we know, Iran has no nuclear weapons program today. Iran has signaled on several occasions since 9/11 that it was interested in a negotiated settlement with the United States. There have also been several other moments when the two states managed to cooperate in more limited ways. And if diplomacy doesn't succeed, the United States and its allies in the region can always fall back on deterrence. By saying that the United States should "non-violently" prepare for an Iranian nuclear weapons capability, I take it that Drezner recognizes that preventive war won't solve this problem and could easily make a lot of other problems worse. We've deterred bigger and tougher adversaries in the past, and while I'd strongly prefer that Iran decide not to become a nuclear weapons state, I'm not going to panic if it does cross that line at some point down the road. And neither should anyone else.

Majid Saeedi/Getty Images

 
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RICHARD WITTYQ

8:53 PM ET

March 19, 2009

That reasoning might be applicable relative to the US

It is a prospect, though strained, that the US might establish a "talk first, shoot only at last resort" relationship with Iran.

It is NOT a prospect, without a radical change in Iranian foreign policy, for Israel to do so.

Iran unconditionally rejects and opposes Israel. Its policy is not constructed as a reflection of how they are treated, but is cardinal.

And, although Israel is not a member of the non-proliferation regime, not subject to inspections (like India), and can only be suspected (not known) how many warheads they possess. Its not knowable for any of us even if they have nuclear weapons, regardless of the testimony of an individual whistle-blower. Even a "slip" from Israeli officials, may not be truth, but intentional deterrence.

I know you define this as one example of where Israeli relations with another state, might conflict with the US relations.

I'm not so sure if the appropriate response to an exageration of alliance (to the level of unconditionality), is rejection of that alliance. I believe that as there are CONSIDERABLE real relations between the US and Israel (economic, cultural, intelligence, families), that it is in the US interests to insist that Iran cease proxy military threats on Israel.

It would not be in the US interest to risk REAL relations with Israel for the gamble of prospective tense and less involved one with Iran. (Economic relations between Israel and the US include companies like Microsoft, Intel, Motorola, Sun, photovoltaics, water-preserving agricultural research, desalinization, electric vehicles; all forward thinking relationships guided by positive motivation). There is no similar prospect even with Iran.

Iran has the capability of being a collaborator with the US. There are brilliant and effective individuals and companies in Iran.

Ironically, they would have a natural relationship with Israeli, if they weren't committed to Israel's removal.

 

STILLLEARNING

9:17 PM ET

March 19, 2009

Iran's nuclear program

"it is legal within the confines of the NPT."

Thank you so much for not letting this falling under the table.

 

NY16

10:03 PM ET

March 19, 2009

Iran

What if they have considered your points and concluded that a policy of ambiguity is in their interest? It could be that they want to master the fuel cycle and develop delivery systems without ever technically breaching the NPT - simply maintaining the capability of weaponizing relatively quickly if the strategic situation required it in their view. I am not sure if this is truly practicable without salting away some material for quick use, but it seems to conform to their public statements.

I think the real issue for them submitting to effective controls is that they would want an effective security commitment which we are not in a position to credibly provide.

 

WADOSY

10:47 PM ET

March 19, 2009

iran nukes america. thanks, boris.

how do we justify a nuke first strike on russia, i wonder?
 
boris berezovsky is a mathematician and game theory guy, or more specifically, a "decision theorist", with lots of heavy duty computer expertise. So he's a psychohistorian….
 
the tricky part is figuring out whose side he's on. He's definitely against putin, he's an israeli citizen, although he's a little too classy to hang out in israel. But his citizenship gives us a hint of his leanings. Other than that, he may be just another run-of-the-mill psychopath who has only one side: his own.
 
we know berezovsky helped install the drunk yeltsin so he could help himself to russia's assets as the soviet union collapsed. Some russians believe berezovsky was a major cause of that collapse. We know he's a crook who faces russian charges of tax evasion, fraud and grand theft.
 
we know he's been mixed up in murder cases --being boris' buddy is one of the most hazardous occupations on earth-- and we know he was displeased with paul klebnikov, the american editor of forbes' russian edition who wrote a book about berezovsky's criminal behavior, including the murder of one of russia's most famous television personalities... so we got listyev, klebnikov followed by politkovskaya and litvenenko... all murdered, all connectied with mr. berzovsky.
 
berezovsky supported putin in the 2000 elections in russia, but started calling for violent overthrow of putin once putin cracked down on israeli russian oligarchs... israeli americans and the zionist media are also gunning for putin, because he threw a monkeywrench into neocon plans to use russian oil while they remodeled the middle east oil patch.
 
we know berezovsky is associated with bunnypants brother, neil bunnypants, in business, and lord knows how those boys define "business". So that's another indication of berezovsky's leanings.
 
we know boris is involved with chechens, and he paid chechen terrorist leader shamil basayev millions of dollars... basayev was the great white hope for driving russians from the north caucasus and chopping off that chunk of russia that hangs down to the caspian and black seas...which would clear the way the PNAC pipelines, and would further isolate russia by blocking russian access to its southern european export port.
 
map 3309 x 3408
 
we know boris backed yulia, yushchenko and the "orange revolution" in ukraine, which supposedly would be more favorable to the PNAC european pipeline. yulia's had her ups and downs, but is currently back in power, up to her eyeballs in the continuing shootouts between russia and ukraine over gas supplies... but that's what the "orange revolution" was about: installing PNAC puppets to block russian access to european energy markets. 
 
we know boris has made secret trips to kyrgyzstan, site of the "tulip revolution" that was supposed to give israeli america another foothold in central asia, block russian access to markets and block chinese access to energy.
 
and you got to wonder how berezovsky's "decision theories" dovetail with good ol' doc aumann's "game theories", dont you?
 
and we got to wonder why there was such an uproar about aumann getting the nobel prize.... there must be lots of people who are beginning to understand the role of psychohistorians like berezovsky and aumann in planning wars, and incidents that trigger wars, and tiny applications of force that cause massive changes in the course of history.
 
but the most worrisome thing about berezovsky is his statement that chechens acquired nukes as the soviets union collapsed...

he's planting a legend that can be used in a nuke false flag operation.

 

WADOSY

11:13 PM ET

March 19, 2009

nuke primacy and benevolent hegemony: glowing in the dark

if america's been built from the ground up dependent on cheap oil, and if israel is dependent on america for its survival, and if america is threatened by peak oil, that means israel is threatened by peak oil at one remove.

since oil produces co2, and israel is threatened by sea level rise caused by global warming caused by co2 caused by burning oil, an effort must be made to curb co2 production by curbing use of oil, especially seeing as how china recently overtook the US as the world's biggest producer of co2...

curbing chinese use of energy means grabbing control of enough oil to forcibly restrict chinese access to oil... not to mention these PNAC dreams of global hegemony through control of energy, enforced, as a last resort, by nuke first strikes on russia and china.

.

...the sort of missile defenses that the United States might plausibly deploy would be valuable primarily in an offensive context, not a defensive one -- as an adjunct to a U.S. first-strike capability, not as a standalone shield.

If the United States launched a nuclear attack against Russia (or China), the targeted country would be left with a tiny surviving arsenal -- if any at all. At that point, even a relatively modest or inefficient missile-defense system might well be enough to protect against any retaliatory strikes, because the devastated enemy would have so few warheads and decoys left.

The Rise of U.S. Nuclear Primacy From CFR Foreign Affairs, March/April 2006

.
i have to admit that all this sounds so loony that it's probably nothing more than scare tactics intended to provide cover as america's looted.

 

RAF3

11:52 PM ET

March 19, 2009

Iran vis-a-vis Israel and the NPT

First, as to Iran's stance towards Israel, it's important to note that Iran's anti-Israeli attitude originated the same way its anti-American attitude did: after the revolution, because of Israeli and American coddling of the Shah. While they still chant "Death to Israel" (and "Death to America"), their ACTIONS do not reflect the same attitude as they did in the 1980s. We can listen to Ahmadinejad say anything he wants about Israel but at the end of the day he is only the President of Iran and therefore really only has domestic economic power. If you listen to Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the person who actually wields Iranian military power, diplomatic power, and essentially holds an absolute veto power over anything, you do not hear the same things from him. During the Gaza debacle he declared that going and fighting Israel as an Iranian is forbidden in Islam. So I would think Iran would be open to relations once the Palestinian issue is resolved. I can't say the same for sure about the Likuds in Israel.

Secondly, you are right, Iran has not violated the NPT. And I agree with the steps you outlined above as to convincing Iran that it does not need nuclear weapons. Yet even if Iran does not build weapons but still has the capability to do so, it's likely other states in the region would follow: most notably Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and possibly Turkey. The NPT is a flawed document. There needs to be an IAEA-like organization that can offer industrial grade uranium (about 10% U-235) on the cheap, while the actual IAEA monitors it all and ensures that spent fuel is returned to the former agency and is not used to create weapons grade uranium (about 95% U-235). This is not unlike what Russia is currently doing with Iran by providing it with fuel and then taking the spent fuel back, although it'd be preferable for this to be done by an international organization rather than a state even if it is obvious Russia does not particularly want Iran to build weapons, either. This would allow states like Iran to develop civilian nuclear facilities that they are legally entitled to while ensuring that they do not develop nuclear weapons.

 

RICHARD WITTYQ

9:29 AM ET

March 20, 2009

Iran's positions are un-conditional

Whether they originated in angers about the Shah or not, that period is long gone.

The basis of their policy re:Israel is stated as unconditional, with no prospect of fundamental change.

They are on a curve of regional weight, not an effort to be a small part of something that already exists. They are not asking for a place at a large table of peers (including Israel).

 

HASS

8:23 PM ET

March 20, 2009

Israel threatens Iran

Actually, it was the Israelis who turned hostile against Iran because they saw Iran has a potential obstacle to Israeli domination of the Mideast and competitor to relations with the US.

Dr Trita Parsi has written about this:

But it wasn’t Iran that turned the Israeli-Iranian cold war warm – it was Israel....The Israeli reversal on Iran was partially motivated by the fear that its strategic importance would diminish significantly in the post-cold war middle east if the then president (1989-97) Hashemi Rafsanjani’s outreach to the Bush Sr administration was successful.

- Treacherous Alliance: The Secret Dealings of Israel, Iran, and the United States
http://www.amazon.com/Treacherous-Alliance-Secret-Dealings-Israel/dp/0300120575

 

GRAND SEN-OR

6:43 AM ET

March 20, 2009

From Tehran's perspective,

From Tehran's perspective, they have three nuclear powers in their neighborhood (Pakistan, India, and Israel), and U.S. troops on two sides (in Iraq and Afghanistan). U.S. naval forces patrol the Iranian Sea and Persian Gulf, and it is the stated policy of the U.S. government -- the world's strongest military power -- to seek the removal of the current Iranian regime. Indeed, we are reportedly engaged in various covert operations there already. Iranians can see that Saddam Hussein is dead and buried but Kim Jong Il is not, and they know one of the reasons why. They also know that Muammar al-Qaddafi agreed to give up his own WMD programs only after the Bush administration agreed not to try to overthrow him. Under these circumstances, it would be surprising if Iran wasn't interested in its own deterrent.

Jumping from Iran to Libya?!
Is Libya surrounded by foure nuclear powers in their neighborhood (Pakistan, India, and Israel and ex-soviet states)?
While even yourself is not sure who is the Boss in Israel why would you think Iran can be convinced to be secure of national threats around her? Are you going to offer them Missile-shields;->>>
Be realistic Mate! Would you buy it yourself?
Why don't you annex Israel as another star, star of David on your Flag, that would be realistic, then Iranians would know whom they are dealing with;->>
And that would cost the Taxpayers less, believe your Treasury;->>
You could add Iraq and Afghanistan as a crescent later on;->>

BTW, have we decided who is the Boss at CH?

Grand Sen~or.

 

WADOSY

12:11 AM ET

March 20, 2009

well, whatever else needs to be done...

...israel has to have a fairly long war with iran... long enough to keep hormuz closed so those pipelines can be built from the persian gulf to the med through israel.

how else is israel gonna make a living once america goes under, if not by transit fees and control of oil?

so war with iran is a necessity.

and if everyone plays their cards right, the global economy will be boogered up so bad nobody will notice oil production has peaked... which is one of the main objects in the current "economic 9/11" game: crash the economy, destroy demand for oil, and obscure peak oil so no one will connect the dots between peak oil and 9/11... and it seems to be working, at least for the time being.

it just seems unlikely to me that the ringleaders of israel believe their own propaganda about iran... nope, they just want war to close hormuz.

 

GRAND SEN-OR

6:15 PM ET

March 20, 2009

Israel just want war to

Israel just want war to close hormuz.

Of course this ignores the fact that Israel is just a client State and Hurmuz is under control.

Client States have a prescribed role, they cannot act realistically, they just play their roles.

Grand Sen~or.

 

WADOSY

12:19 AM ET

March 20, 2009

peak oil = trigger... sea level rise = long term motive

as of 11 March, 2009, 13:50 GMT
 
oil graph: production, drills working, price. gold price, dollar index.
 
references:
 

oil production
 
rigs working
 
oil price
 
gold price
 
dollar dx

 
 

long-term motive

 
 
as the looting continues, oil production continues to fall, as does the number of drills working...
 
we can probably be confident that the cause/effect relationship between peak oil and 9/11 has been successfully obscured, at least for the time being.

 

GRAND SEN-OR

6:50 AM ET

March 20, 2009

Professor you are talking so sweet...

Professor, you are talking so sweet but not so realistic. Remember you were trying to naturalize the US - Israel relations. Why don't you do the same with Iran and try to naturalize the US - Iran and Israel - Iran relations that is what I would expect from a state bound realist;->But then of course this is something like saying "Why don't you naturalize the US - Israel and Israel - Palestinian relations first". That would be a good exercise before the other;-> I also think that the IL should talk directly to Iranians, I mean eventually they will be the policy makers, so why waste time with middle-men;->>

You and I know Iran conceives Israel being a loose client of the US as a nuclear threat more than the US. So, why don't you build your realistic approach to Iran on that?
I am just watching Mate - how many states you are going to save around there;->>

Grand Sen~or.

 

WADOSY

12:22 AM ET

March 20, 2009

it's a hard hard thing...

...when a little nuts and bolts reality creeps into the ivory towers.

 

BRETT

6:18 AM ET

March 20, 2009

eed, we are reportedly

eed, we are reportedly engaged in various covert operations there already. Iranians can see that Saddam Hussein is dead and buried but Kim Jong Il is not, and they know one of the reasons why.

There is that, but keep in mind that paranoia among the top leadership goes both farther and deeper than that in Iran; the above only furthers it beyond what it already was. That is a very steep hill of distrust to climb, and I'm not at all convinced that the costs would be worth it.

But imagine how we might react a decade hence, if we knew that Iran had built a few nuclear weapons and some terrorist group whose agenda was somewhat similar to Iran's managed to explode a bomb somewhere in the world, or even on American soil?

Building a suitcase nuke (which is what I'm assuming you are referring to) is rather difficult. It takes much more advanced nuclear weapons technology than Iran has, and they'd have to get it from someone else or develop it on their own (which would take time).

Nuclear forensics is hardly perfect (or so my physicist colleagues tell me) and the United States has been known to shoot first and ask questions later in the past.

I've read, though, that they are generally pretty good at tracing the plutonium and uranium used back to the reactor it was enriched/made in.

So Iran should not be confident that we'd act with precision and restraint in the aftermath of a nuclear terrorist attack, and that concern ought to give them pause about whether joining the nuclear weapons club is a net plus.

Think about it from their cost-benefit-analysis perspective. Perceived immunity to US military threat and an instant audience among anyone in range (not to mention greater freedom to pursue their non-military efforts in the Middle East) in the next 5-15 years, versus the possible chance that they'll be incinerated if some terrorist group gets a suitcase nuke (unlikely), manages to detonate it in a US city or other major city (unlikely), and then the assumption runs back to Iran. The nukes sounds like a much better idea.

I'd also point out to them that acquiring nuclear weapons will encourage other states in the Middle East to follow suit.

All that means is that they'd be deterred from a conventional invasion of a neighboring Arab state. It wouldn't change the sense of security from US military threat that they'd feel, nor would it affect their unconventional efforts (like sponsoring Hezbollah and Hamas).

it should prefer to confine the competition there to the conventional realm,

Only among the Arab states, seeing as how Israel already has nukes. Moreover, none of the effects of this size would change with nukes on their part for the worse, aside from the weakened ability to mount a conventional threat.

They also know that Muammar al-Qaddafi agreed to give up his own WMD programs only after the Bush administration agreed not to try to overthrow him.

True, but that came at the end of a long process of reconciliation started by the European Union states back in the 1990s.

Thus, from a purely realist perspective, Iran might actually be better off with the "Japan option": possessing the latent capability to build nuclear weapons if circumstances required, but avoiding the costs and risks by refraining from exercising that option.

The only problem is that while Japan doesn't actually build nuclear weapons, they don't really need to; they're under the security envelope of the US. The same condition does not apply to Iran, which (as I mentioned) has a leadership that is deeply suspicious of the US and other possible threats to their regime survival.

I'm not going to panic if it does cross that line at some point down the road. And neither should anyone else.

I'm not panicking either. What it does mean, though, is that they'll have more freedom to do their usual stuff in the Middle East, and more leverage over their arab neighbors (at least until they get nukes). Not to mention, of course, that it will freak the fuck right out of the Israelis.

 

GRAND SEN-OR

6:57 AM ET

March 20, 2009

Professor I have a question please

What happens if Israel attacks Iran using WMD to protect her national interest, like she attacked Gazza?
Do the US has some sort of missile shield to intercept such an attack considering it as an act against the national interest of the US? You know the US and the EU have more national intersts than Israel to keep the stability around that region. I mean given the SATFP State can do funny things to protect their national interest, isn't it?

Remember some of the axioms of the SATFP:

7. A State can take deterrent action against other State(s) if the Leadership of the State decides so. (see axiom 11 & 12).

8. A State seeks to increase her national interests when her existence is threatened.

9. A State's power is a potential threat to other states. A state is by definition paranoid of other states.

I mean I don't want to trigger some sort of paranoia. but I was thinking this is already part of the nature of State;->>
I am just wondering how come that doesn't bother you at all, You can imagine Iran attacking to the European countries and trying to install missile-shields for them. but now I am thinking may be the US Navy is in charge for such un-expected situations, maybe in the Gulf you can intercept such stray shots, is that it?!;->>

BTW, you were talking about sticks;-> can you imagine a bigger stick than a WMD ?;->>
I can;->>

Grand Sen~or,

 

CHRISDORNAN

7:49 AM ET

March 20, 2009

Et Tu

Why are you assuming that Iran is set on a nuclear weapons programme? Where is the evidence that they want any more than the Japanese option? They are entitled to it by treaty and it serves all their purposes. If Stephen Walt is inbibing neocon talking points because they have been repeated enough then it is a sad day.

The thing to do is to pusuade them to give up mastery of the fuel cycle--it is far too expensive, destabilising and doesn't really make sense (to them or anyone else). But we (US, Britain and France and Germany) will have to acknowledge their entitlement to it and negotiate accordingly.

 

RICHARD WITTYQ

9:31 AM ET

March 20, 2009

The basis of suspicion is in the article`

That is that Iran has not taken the offers to confirm that it is seeking solely a nuclear power program.

It ignores international skepticism, and continues enrichment research beyond the level of nuclear power needs.

 

HASS

12:12 PM ET

March 20, 2009

Wrong.

SHort of giving up its enrichment program, Iran has done everythign it can to prove that the program is not intended to make nukes, including suspending enrichment for 2 years and implementing the Additional Protocol, and at each step the goalposts were moved and yet more demands for concessions made on Iran. Iran has made numerous offers (endorsed by the IAEA and even US experts) that would address any serious and legitimate claims about nuclear weapons proliferation, only to see the offers ignored.
Read up http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/04/05/opinion/edzarif.php

 

WADOSY

12:17 PM ET

March 20, 2009

will elbaradei's successor be more cooperative?

if there was any proof of iran's intentions of pursuing nuclear weapons...

but there's no proof, is there...? ...other than evidence on a laptop computer that was probably planted by the same people who fabricated evidence of iraq's WMDs.

if that laptop data is so convincing, how come it cant be passed to elbaradei so he can bust the iranians for violating the NPT?

it's quite wonderful that elbaradei has never been able to find any evidence at all of iran's nuke weapons program... so elbaradei is being blixed.

elbaradei's gonna retire soon... surely israeli america has enough juice to ensure his successor will be more cooperative in providing pretexts for expanding the neocon wars.

if you guys have enough juice to make it stick, so be it.

but how many times are we expected to fall for the same lame trick?

 

CLINT

12:20 PM ET

March 20, 2009

Is it a crime to ignore

Is it a crime to ignore "International" (read: USA+Israel) __skepticism__?

I think USA should ask Israel to get rid of its nukes first since Israel has disobeyed 70+ UN resolutions.

No Justice == No peace.

 

RICHARD WITTYQ

12:35 PM ET

March 20, 2009

Its not a crime

Its just provocative.

If Iran had offered acceptance of Israel, IF (an achievable conditional acceptance), and if it had not encouraged proxy militias on three frontiers (Lebanon, Gaza primarily, West Bank secondarily); then its word would be taken differently.

The letter of the law would convince that the spirit of the law would be upheld.

 

CLINT

12:43 PM ET

March 20, 2009

Iran is better than Israel since it is a member of NPT

...and Israel has attacked 3 of its neighbors in 3 years: Lebabnon, Syria, and Gaza (the latter being its own concentration camp).

At least Iran is a member of NPT and does not have nukes.

 

HASS

8:27 PM ET

March 20, 2009

Why should Iran accept

Why should Iran accept Israel? Iran didn't accept apartheid S. Africa either, much to its credit.

 

CLINT

11:56 AM ET

March 20, 2009

Make Middle East a Nuclear-Free Zone.

Iran wants nuclear weapons ambiguity for the same reason that Israel does -- deterrence.

Want Iran to suspend it course? Ask Israel to get rid of its 200 nukes.

Make the entire Middle East nuclear free.

We (USA plus Israel) do not want deterrence -- they want compellence -- the ability to dictate the course of actions in the middle east.

Too bad. We will have to learn to compromise.

Please read this by the national defense university in DC:

http://www.ndu.edu/inss/mcnair/mcnair69/McNairPDF.pdf

 

HASS

12:17 PM ET

March 20, 2009

Shame on you Mr Walt

Dr Walt should know better. Actually, the Iranians have already offered to place additional restrictions on their nuclear fuel cycle in excess of their legal obligations to ensure that it cannot even theoretically be used to make bombs - for example, by opening the program to multinational participation, foregoing plutonium reprocessing, allowing more inspections than the NPT requires, etc. Iran's amb to the UN Javad Zarif listed these offers in an editorial in the IHT: http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/04/05/opinion/edzarif.php

ALl of these offers were totally ignored by the US which instead insists that Iran must be deprived of uranium enrichment. Why? Because this conflict isn't about weapons proliferation at all, it is about an on-going conflict between developed and developing nations in controlling the nuclear fuel cycle, the sole source of energy for the near future.

 

CLINT

12:08 PM ET

March 20, 2009

How to Deal With Iran

from my colleagues, William Luers, Thomas R. Pickering, and Jim Walsh:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/22271

"Setting aside recent, misleading reports that Iran already has enough nuclear fuel to build a weapon, the reality is that Tehran now has five thousand centrifuges for enriching uranium and is steadily moving toward achieving the capability to build nuclear bombs.[2] Having the capacity to build a nuclear weapon is not the same thing as having one, and having a large stock of low-enriched uranium is not the same as having the highly enriched uranium necessary for a bomb...."

esp:

"...News reports and some commentators have recently claimed that Iran has enough material for a nuclear weapon. These reports referred to Iran's stock of low-enriched uranium. This is a misleading claim. To begin with, one cannot make a nuclear weapon with low-enriched uranium. A nuclear weapon requires highly enriched uranium or plutonium, and Iran possesses neither. In theory, Iran could take its stock of low-enriched uranium and enrich it to a grade required for making bombs, but its low-enriched uranium is currently under the surveillance of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). Diverting this material for military purposes would be discovered by the IAEA. (Detection of diversion is the IAEA's technological strong suit.) Iran's choices, therefore, are to cheat and get caught or to kick out the inspectors. Either action would represent an extreme departure from Iranian strategy to date and in any case would likely precipitate military action by Israel."

 

HASS

12:16 PM ET

March 20, 2009

Not about nukes at all

Other countries that have recently obtained the same "capacity" to build nuclear bombs include Argentina and Brazil (both of which have a history of actually seeking nukes, and have not implemented the same transparency as Iran to IAEA inspections) and many more will be joining that list as more countries come to rely on nuclear power. This conflict is not about nukes -- it is about who gets to monopolize the nuclear fuel cycle technology, the sole energy source of the future:

"Almost all the new and prospective entrants in the enrichment business appear anxious to establish their credentials as having existing technology in place. Driving this process, in part, is the perception that all countries will soon be divided into uranium enrichment "haves" (suppliers) and "have-nots" (customers) under various proposals to establish multinational nuclear fuel centers and fuel-supply arrangements."

- Lining up to enrich Uranium, International Herald Tribune, Sept 12 2006.

 

CLINT

12:23 PM ET

March 20, 2009

You may be right...

...but I think it is about USA + Israel maintaining a state of compellence in the middle east.

USA+Israel do not want a peaceful deterrence where they would have to take into account the concerns of other nations in the middle east seriously.

So nukes only for Israel please.

 

HASS

2:33 PM ET

March 20, 2009

Israel is also part of this problem

That's also part of the equation -- Israel does not want to see Iran become a stable, secure power in the region. It would pose a challege to Israel's ambitions to dominate the mideast. A strong, secure Iran with 100,000 million potential consumers of American-made goods would pose too much of a temptation for the US. If Iran and the US start to get along, who needs Israel, the ball and chain?

Remember, when Nixon went to CHina, he had to first ditch Taiwan. THe Pro-Israeli Lobby is far more powerful that the pro-Taiwanese lobby was back then. They'll do their best to prevent and US-Iran rapprochment.

 

COURTNEYME109

6:44 PM ET

March 21, 2009

No, Mullahopolis is

Iran's FP cats maintain (and they are correct in many points) that of all the cats in the crunk and disorderly ME - Persia IS the most stable and secure and has been since the horrible Iran Iraq war ended.

The illegit, intolerant leaders of Iran are literally scared to death of 'potential American customers' in Iran. Consider - Barbie is against the law, a Facebook account can get one jailed or worse and blogging is hazardous to the health. Not to mention girls wearing boots or guys sporting guyliner and emo haircuts

Tough to believe ditching Little Satan will allow Greenday concerts in Qom, Britney vids on Iranian TV, gay bars, strip clubs, casinos, bookstores, Youth for Christ events, abortion clinics, churches, Starbucks, will allow fun and free choice to follow.

 

GRAND SEN-OR

9:51 PM ET

March 21, 2009

No, Mullahopolis/Ribbipolis but Secularo-fasco-polis ?

However there is no Mullaplis/Rabbipolis out there, there is Secularo-fasco-polis with mono-law structure, imposing its law to all SPEEs. Same structure in Iran/Israel/the US/the EU/Russia/China/Vatican/etc. And of course to sustain the Tyranny of Monopoly secularo-fascists will advertise Personal Freedoms while denying the rigth to law to SPEEs. Knowing that Personal Freedoms without the right to law to SPEEs means and amounts to nothing to stop SPEEs to be assimilated by the Monopoly.

Grand Sen~or.

 

HASS

3:55 PM ET

March 23, 2009

Barbie SHOULD BE against the

Barbie SHOULD BE against the law, and the same mullahs have repeatedly made peace offers to the US that the pro-Israeli lobby has undermined, because Israel does not want to see the US and Iran get along

 

COURTNEYME109

4:52 AM ET

March 24, 2009

Careful!

That kind of intolerance reeks of fear of fun and free choice.

 

CLINT

12:13 PM ET

March 20, 2009

The N.P.T. and the West's role

From another colleague:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2725a9fc-a467-11dc-a28d-0000779fd2ac.html

We need to overhaul what is a flawed non-proliferation treaty

Published: December 7 2007 02:00 | Last updated: December 7 2007 02:00

From Dr Yousaf Mahmood Butt.

Sir, David Miliband (“Why we must not take the pressure off Iran” December 5) is correct to point out that the Iranian uranium enrichment programme remains a concern despite the just-released US National Intelligence Estimate suggesting that Iran suspended its nuclear weapons programme in 2003.

However, no amount of “diplomacy with teeth” can compensate for what is fundamentally a flaw in the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT): signatory nations (such as Iran) are allowed by law to enrich uranium – ostensibly for peaceful uses – and thus collect the raw material needed, should they wish, for a bomb.

Instead of the selective application of United Nations sanctions to nations perceived to be unfriendly or unco-operative by the west (eg, No to Iran, Yes to Brazil for uranium enrichment), it would make more sense to overhaul the 1970 NPT; and, while at it, also make sure that the new treaty punishes more aggressively those (predominantly western) nations that do not abide by their arms-reduction obligations in the current NPT.

“If someone asks me to disarm and keep a slingshot while he comes at me with a cannon, what good does that do?” Brazillian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva has said of the NPT; but it could well be said by the Iranian government in reference to Israel, which is openly allowed by the west to stockpile 200 or so nuclear warheads in the region.

It is telling that President Ford, in 1976, encouraged Iran (then under the US-backed shah) to build both uranium enrichment as well as plutonium processing plants. How is it that what was permissible then under the 1970 NPT, has now become forbidden – under the very same treaty – to the point that there are cries for further UN sanctions against Iran?

The answer is to be found in Mr Miliband’s article: we don’t trust Iran and it is not our friend. Unfortunately, if international law is to be taken seriously, it must be blind.

Yousaf Mahmood Butt,
Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
Cambridge, MA 02138, US

 

WADOSY

12:34 PM ET

March 20, 2009

what it boils down to...

nobody can explain why we should believe the same lies about ahmadinejad as we were told about saddam hussein.

nobody can explain why we should believe the same liars who lied about saddam when they lie about ahmadinejad.

nobody can explain why, if that laptop data is so convincing, israeli america is unable to relay that data to the IAEA so elbaradei can bust iran for violating the NPT.

the logic and the facts defeat the warmongers every time... it's just wonderful, though, that the warmongers have got such a stranglehold on the media and politics that they can "create their own reality".

 

HASS

2:30 PM ET

March 20, 2009

Laptop of Death = Niger Papers

The "Laptop of Death" has been shopped around by the US as proof positive of an Iranian nuclear weapons program -- and yet never made available to the IAEA for vetting. IN fact, the US has refused to allow the IAEA to present Iran with any documents obtained from the laptop, and yet somehow the Iranians are supposed to refute the charges based on the same documents.

 

CLINT

12:38 PM ET

March 20, 2009

How about forcing Israel to join the NPT?

Prof. Walt,
how about another post on forcing Israel -- the only Middle East nation with nuclear arms -- to join the NPT and give up its nukes?

That would be more interesting than the regular ol' conversations about Iran.

 

COURTNEYME109

6:55 PM ET

March 21, 2009

YAWN

Uh, Little Satan is also a tolerant, egalitarian society with a penchant for open transparent elections, a free, uncensored media, a military under civie control, a judiciary under elected gov oversight and a nat'l treasury under public scrutiny.

Worrying about democracies with nukes is inappropriate, boring, weakminded handwringing.

More conversations about regime changing Iran - either the new school fun friendly way like Miliband's 'Democratic Imperatives' or the old school way at the point of a thousand cruise missiles and the world famous M16 would be way more interesting than regular ol' conversations about how Liitle Satan and Great Satan are ruining the world.

 

HASS

3:56 PM ET

March 23, 2009

Little satan is a racist

Little satan is a racist thuggish state built on ethnic cleansing.

 

HASS

3:56 PM ET

March 23, 2009

Little satan is a racist

Little satan is a racist thuggish state built on ethnic cleansing.

 

COURTNEYME109

4:53 AM ET

March 24, 2009

Little Satan

In this commentary Little Satan is applied to Israel.

Not the Arab League

 

HASS

5:24 PM ET

March 24, 2009

Yes, I know.

Yes, I know.

 

RICHARD WITTYQ

12:40 PM ET

March 20, 2009

The basis of a possible thaw

It would take a big change in policy on the part of Iran.

That is to shift the nature of its opposition to Israel from an unconditional one stated as "Zionism is racism", to a conditional one stated as "Denial of equal civil rights is racism".

One is unconditional enemy status. The other is conditional.

Conditions can be negotiated and navigated. Unconditional hatred cannot be.

It won't work unless STATED, and then followed through on.

 

CLINT

12:46 PM ET

March 20, 2009

Iran is a signatory of NPT -- unlike Israel, a pariah nation

At least Iran is a member of NPT and does not have nukes.

Can Israel say that?

 

COURTNEYME109

6:59 PM ET

March 21, 2009

Sure. The only functional

Sure. The only functional democracy in that neck of the woods is totally queering the mix for illegit, intolerant Presidents for Life, Supreme Leaders and corrupt royalty in Ray Bans.

What a shame.

Little Satan also has a penchant for open transparent elections, a free, uncensored media, a military under civie control, a judiciary under elected gov oversight and a nat'l treasury under public scrutiny.

Can Iran say that?

 

HASS

5:23 PM ET

March 24, 2009

"Open transparent elections"

"Open transparent elections" as long as youre haven't been driven out of your home into an open air prison. Give it a rest, no one buys Israel as a democracy.

 

HASS

2:28 PM ET

March 20, 2009

Zionism=Racism

Zionism is inherently racist.

 

RICHARD WITTYQ

2:55 PM ET

March 20, 2009

How is self-governance racist?

If you take a principled stand and described all nationalism as "racist", then you might have a point, a difficult one to navigate that conflicts with most communities' definition of consent of the governed, but still a principled point.

 

HASS

8:30 PM ET

March 20, 2009

All nationalist don't insist

All nationalist don't insist on eradicating non-Jews and driving them into tent cities or murdering them. In fact the only others nationalist who have done that in the modern era were the Nazis. There isn't a single Israeli town that wasn't built on the ruins of a Palestinian village

"There are no such things as Palestinians"
- ISraeli PM GOlda Meir.

 

Stephen M. Walt is the Robert and Renée Belfer professor of international relations at Harvard University.

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