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In Re Rothkopf
Fri, 03/20/2009 - 1:22pm
I didn't think David Rothkopf's rather personal attack on me deserved a response, but Jerome Slater clearly disagrees.
( filed under: )









What did you think of Slater's criticisms of your work
The content of Slater's criticisms was similar to Rothkopfs, though not as personal.
Slater ignoring Walt's personal attacks
Slater appears to be limiting parts of his discussion to Walt's book without addressing Walt's rather personal attacks on those opposed to Freeman's nomination.
What changed your mind, that someone else did the work for you? ;-)
Chas Freeman: petitions the U.S. to withdraw from Afghanistan
From Commentary Magazine's "Contentions" Weblog:
March 23, 2009
Thank Goodness for the Obama Administration’s Thorough Vetting Process
By Ted R. Bromund
I had dinner last week with a former student who worked for Obama’s campaign and now, like millions of others, is in town to try to land an administration job. His complaint was that the administration’s vetting procedures were so thorough that they were slowing him up, a complaint that made me choke on the excellent Pomerol we’d ordered.
I thought of his complaint again today, when a friend pointed out an interesting item in the February 26, 2009, New York Review of Books: a petition calling on the U.S. to withdraw immediately and totally from Afghanistan. One signatory, predictably, was Norman Finkelstein. Another, equally predictably, was Chas Freeman. That petition was published weeks before Freeman’s name was put forward as the arbiter of U.S. intelligence assessments. Now, naturally, it would never for a moment compromise Freeman’s objectivity that his self-declared political opinions are wildly at odds with those of the administration he sought to join. Nor is there anything even slightly unseemly about a candidate for such a position publicly stating preferences that would immediately put him at partisan odds with the President. Nor, of course, need we wonder at the fact that Freeman found himself politically at home with a conspiracy theorist like Finkelstein.
But I do have to wonder about those vetting procedures. Freeman wanted the job, but it seems unlikely that he informed the administration of his publicly-expressed views. And amazingly, no one in the administration noticed them. The press doesn’t get a pass here: it’s astonishing that this publicly-available petition wasn’t immediately brought up as a reason why he was profoundly unsuited for the intelligence job.
Of course, all that may be too generous. Perhaps it’s not true that no one in the administration noticed his views about their policy. Perhaps, instead, they noticed and didn’t care. In that case, we have to ask not about the competence of their vetting process, but about the sincerity of their commitment to the war in Afghanistan.
Copyright © 1997-2009 Commentary Magazine
All Rights Reserved
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/bromund/59741
Perhaps it’s not true that no
Perhaps it’s not true that no one in the administration noticed his views about their policy. Perhaps, instead, they noticed and didn’t care. In that case, we have to ask not about the competence of their vetting process, but about the sincerity of their commitment to the war in Afghanistan.
I hope they aren't too committed to the war in afghanistan. I'd hate that war to get the kind of commitment we gave to vietnam.
Freeman vs. Reality (From The Weekly Standard's "The Blog")
From The Weekly Standard's "The Blog"
March 31, 2009
Freeman vs. Reality
Chas Freeman last month:
"The Taliban is not a direct military threat to the United States."
http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/03/freeman_wanted_out_of_afghanis.asp
The headline in today's Los Angeles Times:
Pakistan's Taliban leader threatens attacks in the U.S.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-pakistan-threat1-2009apr01,0,1183316.story
So how would a "contrarian" like Freeman assess this report if he were, as Blair still wishes, head of the NIC?
--Posted by Michael Goldfarb at 05:38 PM
© Copyright 2008, News Corporation, Weekly Standard, All Rights Reserved.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/03/freeman_vs_reality.asp
bkaplovitz, are you trying to
bkaplovitz, are you trying to argue that taliban is a direct military threat to the USA?
Well no, you're just quoting Goldfarb from the Weekly Standard. Perhaps you're doing this to show how ridiculous Goldfarb is and how ridiculous the Weekly Standard is to publish him?
Thank you, but we already knew that.
I actually appreciated Mr.
I actually appreciated Mr. Rothkopf's candor. To me, hitting below the belt is direct terms of disrespect like "goy are too mentally inferior to understand our superior arguments" or "terrorist". Though I admit I have never published a famous book but have heard both often enough.
We need room to talk honestly. I respected that you did not reply to the insulting parts of the post. You have argued that room for discussion is often silenced and needs to be created. And, then you respected that there was dissent from your opinion.
What I like about Mr. Rothkopf's reply was that he gave the reason for his acerbic post. He said:
"My problem comes with the implication that those who support Israel are necessarily twisted by dual loyalties into positions that undermine the interests of the United States whereas those whose position is essentially to step back from America's historically strong support for Israel are "realists" who somehow have the best interests of the U.S. at heart...that somehow Walt & Co. are better Americans. "
We all remember the Dreyfus Affair and its historical significance. I take this to say, "BE CAREFUL!!!" Certainly, Finkelstein has opened the question of the future implications for Israel supporters. While I see no reason to assume you favor his work, theories are not put out into a vacuum. The "Israel Lobby" does not stand alone and therefore probably is interpreted with other works, whether they are attributable to Walt and Meirsheimer or not. In the end, I think Rothkopf's reply really amounted to "we are not supporting Israel to commit treason; we actually believe Israel and the USA's best interests lie together".
I can accept this as long as there is an understanding that those that support policies that may be seen as "Pro-Arab" are also doing so, not in treason, but in a belief that it is the best path for both.
In the end, the road of the Jews in this nation is likely to be intertwined with that of the Arabs, as it seems history has fated it. This "mob mentality" as he puts it, like the people who come on this blog and comment on the IL when it is not the subject of the post, or those that cast every Arab initiative into the light of terrorism, no matter its intent, the dichotomization that it fuels puts all the Semitic peoples (and those resembling them ) at risk.
If it makes you feel any
If it makes you feel any better, Rothkopf got totally burned in the comments section of his blog. That's pretty rare; he rarely gets a lot of comments on his posts, not like your Israel-Palestine posts that seem to generate 1001 comments each.
Your back is tough..
Professor we critisize you here enough to get you going Mate! You don't need other Blogs or Blokes for that;->>Actually we critisize you beyond their imagination, that is why theirs fall short not worth mentioning;->
You are well covered here Mate;->
Why don't you invite him to post his here, you could or rather he could get a better perspective, we could give him some tips how to critisize you efectively. Tell him that you wouldn't be called realist if you were afraid of criticism. Realist means what is left behind after all criticism;->>
Grand Sen~or.
Good
That was a great post by Jerome Slater. There’s nothing wrong with criticism as long as it's based in fact and not on lies and slander. This is what Rothkopf and his ilk don’t seem to understand. Continue your great work Professor Walt.
Alterman "responds" to Rothkopf
"My problem comes with the implication that those who support Israel are necessarily twisted by dual loyalties into positions that undermine the interests of the United States whereas those whose position is essentially to step back from America's historically strong support for Israel are "realists" who somehow have the best interests of the U.S. at heart...that somehow Walt & Co. are better Americans." - Rothkopf
Alterman on dual loyalty (as reported by Weiss):
Alternman states that multiple loyalties are a GOOD
That to be humane requires NOT favoring a fetish of "American interests", if it conflicts with humane or even rational "tribal" interests.
That to be humane requires
That to be humane requires NOT favoring a fetish of "American interests", if it conflicts with humane or even rational "tribal" interests.
Yes, and to be humane requires some recognition of palestinian interests which has been utterly lacking in the zionists who have influenced US policy so far.
Alterman has it right
You shifted there J Thomas.
The comment was on the relation between good and American interests. Alterman states that good is more important.
I agree.
Its NOT a realist criteria. Its a moralist.
The comment was on the
The comment was on the relation between good and American interests. Alterman states that good is more important.
We seem to have read different accounts of what Alterman said. It looked to me like Alterman was talking about dual loyalty, about the relation between israeli and american interests, not between "good" and american interests.
I agree that if it's a conflict between good and america I prefer good. Unless our survival is at stake. If somebody says the world will be better off because americans are dead then I want to review the reasoning very carefully. But that isn't Alterman. He's saying it's good to have dual loyalty, good to put israel ahead of the USA.
"Sometimes I'm going to go with Israel" when its interests and the U.S.'s interests diverge. Because the US can take a lot of hits, but Israel can't.
He has an important point there. When you get right down to it, 9/11 didn't hurt america very much. Less than 4000 casualties and some property damage. Not really a big deal except we got extra-excited about it. But imagine if 9/11 had happened in israel! That would have been a catastrophe. The USA can take it a lot better than israel can. Better for it to happen here.
Similarly, israel could not possibly have occupied iraq. They simply don't have the resources. If israel needs somebody to keep troops in iraq for 6+ years and take 4000+ casualties and spend more than $2 trillion, it had better be us. Israelis just can't do that for themselves.
And then there's iran. If israel needs to make sure iran doesn't get nuclear weapons, israel simply can't do it. You can't depend on airstrikes for that. At a minimum it will take special forces to move into those sites and make sure they're destroyed, in some cases doing heavy fighting in a radioactive environment. Israel can't do that. Nobody can do that for israel except the USA.
Etc.
But don't confuse what's good for israel with what's good.
Alterman
Alterman said that sometimes he will support good over America, and sometimes Israel over America, and sometimes good over Israel.
Each proudly.
I see. That wasn't in the
I see. That wasn't in the linked report, was it?
Did he also said "good
Did he also said "good according to ??????"
Grand Sen~or.
The comment was on the
You guys are easy to buy things;->> Agree to what?
I hope you don't by your PC like that;->without asking further questions, like;->
"You say "this PC is good!" but according to what?"
Grand Sen~or.
Hmmm ...
I'm not sure, Richard, whether they would agree. And BTW perhaps politicians could warn the electorate DURING their campaign that they won't favour that fetish of "American interests", if it conflicts with humane or even rational "tribal" interests. Let's see how that goes! I suspect the outrage would strike 10+ on the Richter scale, you know, somewhat reminiscent of Obama's typical white woman comment. [What?!! Are you saying "American interests" are inhumane? Unpatriotic sod, you!] Nah! Methinks those politicians would soon be run out of town. I guess that's why we haven't heard any of that to date. They'd rather tend their tribal flowers in the dark instead of in the light for everyone to see. Maybe they aren't that rational after all, let alone humane!
their tribal flowers in the
What do you expect?! If you have been rational and humane you would replace one and each dummy star on your flag with those tribal flowers, erasing the stripes by admitting their right to law. That is the realistic political move to bring them to light. But it seems you are scared that their light might blind you;->>
Grand Sen~or.
Oddly, Rothkopf begins by
Professor! those Guys don't know how and why theories are formed and used. Theories are abstract grammatical structures, they don't need to be supported by affairs, rather they are used to explain affairs and a theoretical affair is an affair if and only if it is an affair according to the theory in use. Therefore it is meaningless to claim that an affair supports/doesn't support a theory.
Guys! Learns some logic, it really saves a lot of time to avoid idle-talk;->>
Professor! if people don't know that much logic, it really doesn't worth mentioning and wasting Blog Space to their so called criticisms. Just recommend them an Elementary Logic book Mate! or recommend them to consult their Logician before composing criticisms;->
Now look what the Guy says:
no! there are more effective ways to criticize you;
like "You think you are Jewish, in fact you are another assimilated American Citizen who has no legal identity as a Jew, because Jews don't have right to law, they have to obey the one and only law of the Secularo-fascist State."
or like "You are in fact an anussim, assimilated by the one and only State laws, to save your identity."
so, I suggest you be honest at least to yourself and don't say you are Jewish Mate!;->>Realistically speaking, you are just another Costume Party Jew;->
In fact a realist would say "Look at my eyes Guys! Unless I see a Start of David replaced one of the starts on the flag and Jews right to law admitted and legally implemented by the Jews to the Jews and I am identified by those laws as a member of Jews and I accepted it, I am legally no more than a Blooming American Citizen!"
It is not that cheap to be Jewish Mate!
Again realistically speaking, what is happening here is you Guys and the asteemed team of Professor are trying hard to save the State to have a confy chair, pushing each other. Professor is being a nice guy reminding you that you are legally speaking American Citizens so behave like one to get a better chance to grab a seat, don't complicate political affairs saying legally meaningless things like "I'm Jewish", "as being a Jew I also want to save the State of Israel more than the State to save the State.." etc. There is no legal room for those within the mono-law, Monopoly of the State. Don't dream! Be realistic! (as Professor would say;-))
On the other hand when you say "I'm Jewish" Professor gets confused, realistically he argues that "I am talking about some political affairs related to the IL and other family resembling lobbies which are realities of our political space, I am not talking about legally un-identified entities like Jews", but when he observes that state is helpless in front of those lobbies he gets frustrated in his efforts to save the State and encouraged by your claiming that you are Jewish and in desperation he blames you, calling you "un-American!", But fortunately there are other realities taking place in this state of affair, like Freeman's resignation. Unfortunately Professor seems to be ignoring this reality still to save the State by reducing it as if it was caused by the Lobbies. However, the reality behind Freemans' resignation is not some Lobbies' activities, but the State's being incapable to function as he expects as a Patriot. That is what made Freeman to resign - observing that there is nothing left out there to save the State.
In summary, Freeman resigned observing there is nothing left to save the State, while Professor still struggles to save the State and doesn't even mind to sacrifice Freeman in this process. Freeman is more realistic than Professor. Professor cannot see the socio-politico-economic dynamics behind the Lobbies which make the State redundant.
Freeman observing this redundancy warns Patriots:
Mark his words.
Grand Sen~or.
Note on theory: Suppose Professor has a theory called the FP of Walt (FPW), then it should work something like this:
Observation of a political affair is not merely the observation of a group of facts but also the reporting of these facts via a symbolic language played by the rules of the theory (FPW). In this process of reporting the facts are abstracted to the political (scientific) facts via
the theory (FPW) which correlate the observed facts
to the abstracted. In such a way the observation of the political affair or a political experiment, the political facts are governed via the theory (FPW).
Political affair is observed or a political experiment is conducted according to the theory (FPW),
and according to the theory (FPW) it is decided
what should be observed, what is a political affair, political fact,
and according to the theory (FPW) it is reported
what politcal affair, political facts observed.
You see Guys, what Our Professor can and cannot do with a scientific theory is not a mystery, it is all written in a clear book called - the Logic of Scientific Theories, If he is claiming that his theory is a Scientific. If not, then Jupiter knows what he is talking about;->>
Grand Sen-or, I gave you a
Grand Sen-or, I gave you a serious reply in another thread and you answered so late I didn't see your answer until just now, and by now it's so late you might not see mine if I put it there.
I say that people have supported governments for reasons, and those reasons made sense to them at the time. If things are changing now -- if you want them to change -- you need something that will make more sense to modern people than the old way does.
For most of recorded history most nations have been run by kings. This was largely voluntary. People got used to the idea and they wanted it. Note from the book of Samuel for example. An excellent example in many ways.
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15837
People identified with their king. They gossipped about him. They ate their gruel and imagined the king eating peacock tongues and they were glad that somebody connected to them lived in almost unimaginable luxury.
If somebody trash-talked the king then the king was supposed to punish him for it. People approved, that was how it was supposed to go. They wanted a strong stern king who'd be real kingly, they didn't want freedom of speech for malcontents.
If they had a bad king, one whose luxuries were too stingy, whose dominance was too weak, whose harem was too small or to infrequently used, or who lost wars, then they were glad to see him replaced with a more kingly king.
A good king did more than spectacles. He taxed the rich and spent the money. It was hard to tax the poor, that took an army of bureaucrats or thieves. But the rich tried to collect hoards of money and sit on them like so many dragons, and the king could take their money and spend it. Also he could hear court cases and make a big show of finding for the poorer side, he could be the only source of justice. On the other hand he did find ways to tax the poor. One traditional way was with salt. Salt was bulky and yet valuable, it came from a central place -- a mine or else an evaporator by the sea. Kings could declare the saltworks a monopoly, give it to some good friend and collect taxes from that. Everybody needed salt and had to pay.
Kings pretty much everywhere, all over the world. Some greek cities lacked kings. The romans got rid of their king for awhile, and then went with an emperor. The english nobles banded together to restrict their king instead of replacing him with a more kingly king, and their restrictions gradually got more and more binding; their people suffered horribly until improved siege engines let him break their walls and regulate them. For most of human history most people had kings and considered it natural, normal, and right.
But then we got new technology which suddenly allowed much larger governments. Some kings had the resources and the people and the technology to conquer others, and instead of appointing new kings who would be their vassals until the balance of power shifted, they kept their winnings. We got big empires run by bureaucracies. The ottoman empire became a real empire and not just a net of satrapies. The austro-hungarian empire. Etc. Big armies, and yet many of the recruits had to come from conquered lands and they were not particularly loyal to their kings. They felt like they served foreign kings. But often their own kings were gone. They developed a concept of nationalism apart from kings. And yet the kings remained.
The french killed their king and declared a republic and got king Napoleon for awhile. WWI got rid of a lot of kings, but opened the way for king Stalin. Recently we've had such a turbulent time that it's hard for kings to pass their crown to their sons. King Hitler didn't last long. King Batista of cuba had to fly away on a US warplane with his gold, and king Castro has no son. King Marcos of the philippines had to run away on a US warship with his gold. King Saddam of iraq was hanged. King Sadat of egypt was machine-gunned and king Mubarak has no obvious successor. (Though even in the old days declaring a successor meant pinning a target on his back, see 1st and 2nd Kings in the bible. Every time king David had a son who looked like the next king he would be killed or discredited. Accused of raping his sister. Accused of plotting to overthrow David. Etc.) King Assad of syria did manage to pass his kingdom to his son.
In ancient times some countries had a tradition that the king would serve a limited reign -- maybe only a year -- and then he was ritually slaughtered and replaced by a new king. Sometimes he had the chance to kill his challenger and reign a second time. In the USA king Bush accepted the tradition and stepped down after 8 years rather than fight to keep his kingdom. Maybe he knew it was sucked dry?
Monarchy seems to fit human instincts or something. It keeps popping up all over. SPEEs will probably not replace it easily.
SPEEs will probably not
SPEE is a draft concept. I also have a draft constitution/protocol to set up a legal base for it.
Mainly an SPEE is identified by its constitution. The protocol doesn't put any restriction on the creation of an SPEE with a constitution. The only restriction is no SPEE is allowed to impose its constitution and laws based on it to other SPEEs. Also a member of an SPEE has the right to resign from an SPEE regulated by the constitution of the SPEE..etc. But I can imagine an SPEE under those restrictions as a Kingdom, a democracy, etc. Protocols doesn't put any restriction on formation of the SPEE. Maybe the only restriction here is and SPEE must have a written constitution and any changes on the constitution must be openly declared as well.
Those are all drafts, but can be developed further if some clever group of people show interest in it. I don't have time and resources to develop those concept, also it needs a lot of interactions with knowledgeable people in various subjects.
Grand Sen~or.
And yet you have a
And yet you have a point.
When nationalism got big and swept away a lot of old kings, lots of people got real loyal to their nations. And yet in many places that loyalty has become frayed, particularly in the USA and perhaps western europe. Many americans don't see that the USA stands for what they believe in. Some of them object that USA allows abortion and flag-burning and gay marriage and lots of unamerican behavior -- they are stuck in a nation of unpatriotic gay abortionists and they are screaming to get out. Others object to our foreign wars. Everybody objects to high taxes and inflation, they have the highest standard of living in the world (by american standards) but they want government to take less. They have other loyalties. Libertarians are loyal to their imagined libertarian state. Marines are loyal to the Marine Corps. Scientologists are loyal to their org. Zionists are loyal to israel. SCA members are loyal to their kingdom. Etc. They all put up with their government because they have no effective way to revolt, but they don't love it.
Underneath it all, though, kingdoms and nations survive because they have human beings who are loyal to them, who are willing to fight and perhaps die for them. In the years before WWI most kingdoms didn't have enough people like that; they were too small and they were swept away. Governments are created in acts of war, by armies. Iraq was created by the british and the sunni minority was mostly loyal to it; they fought hard to stay on top. Groups that don't create enough soldiers don't get to run governments. So if by some chance the USA were to be replaced by something else, what would it be? Who would declare themselves king of the mountain, who would be ready to fight and maybe die to get their way?
Of all the SPEEs I see around me, the US Marines look like they'd have the best chance.
But you want something else. You want a country where homosexuals can have their own laws for dealing with each other, and pro-choice women can have their own laws, and people who want to get together every Thursday and ritually burn US flags and Marine pennants can have their own laws? I don't think so. Because the biggest group that's ready to kill to stop them, and who's ready to organise however it takes to win, will enforce its will on everybody else.
That's what it takes to have a government. Without that you don't have a government. And with that you get one government that enforces its will wherever it can project sufficient power. The SPEEs have to just suck it up.
Unless you can find some idea that trumps this one.