Is Obama turning up the pressure on Israel?

Thu, 04/16/2009 - 2:37pm

A report in the Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth is getting a lot of play today. It says the Obama administration is dead serious about a two-state solution, and that it is "sharpening its tone" in addressing the Netanyahu government. In particular, the United States has reportedly told Israel that "any treatment of the Iranian nuclear problem will be contingent upon progress in the negotiations and an Israeli withdrawal from West Bank territory." The Netanyahu government is said to have "agreed to show a united front that the route to reaching a solution would be the road map, and would clarify that Israeli flexibility on the Palestinian issue would be contingent upon the American approach toward resolving the Iranian threat, as well as its attitude towards Hamas and Hizbullah."

It goes on:

Senior US administration officials are fully aware of the linkage that Prime Minister Netanyahu and Defense Minister Barak have created between Israeli willingness to make advances on the Palestinian track and their expectations of the Americans to address the Iranian threat, and senior American officials have begun to talk about "Bushehr for Yitzhar." Namely, if you want us to help you defuse the Iranian threat, including the nuclear reactor in Bushehr, get ready to evacuate settlements in the West Bank, with Yitzhar [note: a West Bank settlement-SW] considered to be a token of an Israeli withdrawal from West Bank territory."

This report has been hailed by a number of bloggers--including M. J. Rosenberg of the Israel Policy Forum and Matt Yglesias at the Center for American Progress--as an encouraging sign that the Obama administration intends to achieve a two-state solution in Obama's first term, as the President indicated he would during the campaign. 

Assuming the report is true, it is encouraging news, as it suggests that the Obama administration is not going to put up with Israeli foot-dragging and will actually use American leverage on both sides to move toward a two-state solution. But linking this so emphatically to the Iranian issue strikes me as a mistake, because it could give Tehran a de facto veto over the peace process.  If Israeli compliance becomes directly tied to a resolution of Iran's nuclear program on terms acceptable to Israel, and if Iran decides to stonewall, then the Netanyahu government will have an excuse to dig in its own heels. Ironically, that outcome might not trouble the Iranian government, which exploits the Israeli-Palestine conflict to enhance its own influence, to put more pressure on the United States, and to keep Arab regimes like Saudi Arabia off-balance by emphasizing their failure to do anything tangible to help the Palestinians. 

The key point to grasp is that a two-state solution would be good for the United States and Israel whatever the state of U.S-Iranian relations or the state of Iran's nuclear program. Israeli control of the West Bank offers no defense against Iranian missiles, and peace between Israel and the Palestinians would remove one of Iran's main points of leverage and make it easier for the United States, Israel, and the Arab world to join forces against Iran should it actively threaten the balance of power in the Gulf. The issues are connected in strategic terms, but linking them in the manner suggested by the article could make it harder to make progress on either one.

( filed under: )


Advertisement

 

I agree with you about

I agree with you about linkage. My initial thought upon reading this is that Netanyahu saying, "So what? We'll take care of Iranian nukes ourselves. You won't force us into a deal that is detrimental to our security with a party that is half made up of people who can't enforce an agreement and half of people who won't."

Furthermore, it sounds as if Obama is treating Iranian nukes as a strictly Israeli problem if he is making US efforts on the Iranian front contingent on what Israel does. Considering that, it makes me a bit skeptical of the article. It is in our national interest that Iran doesn't have nukes. I think a big interest, considering the effects down the line (increased Iranian adventurism, a middle east nuclear arms race, increased instability overall in the region, the danger of further proliferation).

Because of that, abrogating our efforts to stop Iran in order to pressure Israel, when there are many other tools at our disposal, seems extremely short sighted. Not "smart diplomacy", as the administration like to portray their efforts. Plus, the easily predictable and not improbable effect of having Israel attack Iranian nuke sites would send oil prices skyrocketing and shockwaves through the economy when we can least afford it. Israel is entitled to do what they want, but pushing them into it through ham-handed attempts at pressure is not in our best interests.

our national interest that

our national interest that Iran doesn't have nukes

No, it isn't. Maybe it is Israel's National Interest. And Israel made a big mistake threatening the EUS declaring "We'll take care of Iranian nukes ourselves if you don't".

Now Obama is in a very strong position in front of Israel without Iranian Nukes. So far even Israel realizes that one-state is no solution and for the US two-state is the only solution to save the State.

The US to be in real bargaining position with Iran has to dis-arm Israel and Palestine, even then Iran wouldn't feel secure with the US, unless there will be a serious move to eliminate WMDs worldwide. So, the US lets Iran get what she will in return of good business relations in the region.
Too bad for Israel that they don't have petrol and they became a useless liability to the EUS. Now their stupid investment to WMD doesn't help them at all. They should be investing human-beings rather than such weapons and walls. As some-one put it in one of those blogs - it is complete fiasco;->>

Of course there is a possibility that Israel strike Iran to upset the EUS and Jewish interests but I don't think Jews are stupid to let this happen, unless they are ready to a mass exodus from the EUS to Homeland(?!) Greater Israel.
It is not for the "national" interest of Jews to let Israel strike Iran. But when it develops to the US National Interest, then Israel may be let to strike Iran and even this wouldn't be for the "national" interest of Jews to do. The EUS had to do it.
So, Israel cannot ignore the "national" interest of Jews and strike Iran, Mr Yahu is bluffing;->>

BTW, linking two-state solution to Iraninan Nukes is not a mistake. It is just an empty linkage to soothe Israel. Ask yourselves "Why would Iran care about two-state solution?". It is stupid to assume that Iran will give up Nukes Project just because Israel agreed to split herself into two;->>

Grand Sen~or.

How do you know...

How do you know the state isn't "bluffing" again, they have always wanted to take Iran.

The U.S. is not that dumb, the only way we would ever attack Iran is if they decided to bomb our bases or attack somebody with nuclear weapons.

Iran has a nuclear power plant and we have been saying the whole time just let them deal with it. Its perfectly fine they have nuclear energy, as long as its regulated.

Its not a nuclear bomb like the neocons said about Iraq and then Iran and Syria. So the USA does NOT want to attack Iran period, we also don't want a patriot act yet we still have it, and ironically most of us don't want a federal reserve either.

So the point is Israel/neocon crazies want and demand all of this for the Globalist state. This is plain wrong and insane. We should let Iran do whatever they want and get out of there, if we were at all still sane people we also wouldn't be protecting Israel IF Iran antagonizes Israel because its not our problem now. Tut Desuit!

In the previous post the

In the previous post the comments don't seem to be turned on, but this deserves to be noted:

Today, advocates of preventive war against Iran offer a similar set of claims, suggesting that Iran's leaders are irrational religious extremists who would happily embrace martyrdom and take millions of fellow humans with them. The only problem with this argument is that there is no convincing evidence to support it.

This is the regime that sent tens of thousands of boys to their deaths as cannon fodder, charging into artillery fire or simply using their lives to clear minefields, armed with only a key. The purpose of the key - to get them into heaven. I'd say that the advocates of preventive war, while not necessarily completely right, at least have some evidence on their side.

But the leaders you reference probably wouldn't embrace martyrdom for themselves, just others.

Linking Iran and Palestine is a Mistake

What sort of “treatment of the nuclear problem” could they be talking about? The US has its own interests to pursue in its relationship with Iran, and only a portion of those interests have to do with the Israel-Iran relationship. I certainly hope Emanuel doesn’t mean that the US will adopt the barking mad paranoid Israeli attitude toward Iran in exchange for good Israeli behavior in the West Bank.

Either the nuclear problem posed by Iran is serious or it isn't. If it is serious, dealing with it shouldn't be contingent on what Israel does or doesn't do in the West Bank. If it is not so serious, then the US shouldn't be suggesting that it will take military care of a non-problem in exchange for Israeli cooperation on a different matter. But the fact that the administration is willing to treat the Iranian nuclear program as just some sort of negotiating chip in its dealings with Israel is in itself enough to suggest that they rate the seriousness of the threat far, far, far below the level assigned to it by Israel.

The linkage suggested in YA story is crude. Not only does it give Iran leverage it doesn't need, as Professor Walt notes, it also gives Israel an added domestic political excuse for unilateral preemption.

If Obama and Emanuel are looking for some sticks to use, what's wrong with straightforward sanctions? That's what countries typically use to get other countries to behave in the desired way. The US should work with global partners to hammer out a framework, containing benchmarks and timetables, for ending the Israeli occupation and creating a Palestinian state - a framework which makes demands on both parties. This framework needs to be imposed by the international community, not dumped on another negotiating table to be haggled over futilely by two eternally warring parties. If either party fails to meet the obligations imposed by the international community, the world slaps sanctions on them. That's it.

Enough is enough with these characters. We're long accustomed to treating the Palestinians as a deeply dysfunctional political community. But by electing Netanyahu as its head and appointing the thuggish clown Lieberman as its Foreign Minister (!!!!!), Israel has ceded its right to be treated as a serious, grown up-state.

Enough is enough with these

Enough is enough with these characters. We're long accustomed to treating the Palestinians as a deeply dysfunctional political community. But by electing Netanyahu as its head and appointing the thuggish clown Lieberman as its Foreign Minister (!!!!!), Israel has ceded its right to be treated as a serious, grown up-state.

I agree, Israel has mucked up;->>

Grand Sen~or.

But wait--I misled you.

But wait--I misled you. Hillary Clinton never said that, it was Secretary of State Dean Rusk in 1966. Rusk wasn't talking about Iran, of course; he was talking about Communist China (I just switched the names).

Professor, this is very, very clever of you. I frequently use similar technique to investigate statements apart from questioning them on conceptual level. One-day I will demonstrate how I question a statement here. I believe those questions are an effective tool to sort out statements to deal with them as they deserve.

Now you are talking Mate!
And you are in business;-))

Grand Sen~or.

Just...wait

I think we ought to pause before reacting to stories as thinly sourced as this one appears to be.

We know how reluctant Israeli politicians -- meaning just about all of them, not only the ones poised to lead Israel's government -- are to close with the difficult domestic politics of abandoning West Bank settlements, or even stopping new ones. We also know that the Israelis are nervous about Iran, not without cause but also not without awareness that preoccupation with Iran is one way to distract the Americans from pressuring them to deal with the one question they'd prefer to postpone indefinitely.

As a practical matter, an American "defense" against the development of an Iranian nuclear capability would need to involve much deeper engagement with Iran than has been achieved by Washington since the Shah fell. This includes making the issue of whether the costs of Iran's nuclear program and resultant economic isolation are worth it salient within Iranian politics. The point here is that if the United States were to attempt this for any reason, it wouldn't be to secure Israel's cooperation over West Bank settlements. It would have to be because Washington thought this was the best way to prevent a regional nuclear arms race, and eventually coax Iran away from being such a damned nuisance -- central American objectives, not Israeli ones.

A final thing we know is that Iran, the West Bank Palestinians and the Israeli leadership are not the only players on this stage. There are, for example, the Syrians, with whom the Americans would like the Israelis to engage over return of the Golan Heights, something the Israelis might well do if it meant they wouldn't have to deal with stopping West Bank settlements. Complexities are piled on top of complexities in this part of the world. After the last eight years we can't take for granted that the new administration in Washington is on top of them all, but the account in Yedioth Ahronoth strikes me as a little simplistic.

You make the key point; in

You make the key point; in fact, I remember reading a report awhile back that Netanyahu was going to make progress on the two-state solution dependent on US solving the Iranian nuke problem. So, who makes the first move? If Iran keeps pushing toward nukes, does this absolve Israel of its road map responsibilities?

Netanyahu was going to make

Netanyahu was going to make progress on the two-state solution dependent on US solving the Iranian nuke problem.

The problem is; Mr Yahu has no choice for one-state leads to apartheid which falls out side of State. This has nothing to do with Iranian nuke problem.
By definition apartheid is not state.

Grand Sen~or.

Isn't the FM on record

Isn't the FM on record supporting a de-facto apartheid model?

On that I have to remind you

On that I have to remind you how the EUS treated South Africa;-> When Sauth African Apartheid became a useless liability in African affairs, they let her dissolved to State. Some similar end is at hand for Israel, unless they settle on two-state solution.

Grand Sen~or.

I don't believe in

I don't believe in pre-ordained futures (too much David Hume in my formative years).

There are many in-between steps. Or one can try different labels. Today's France, for example, is not that far from what could be labeled urban apartheid with its segregated banlieues for immigrants; sure they occasionally explode into violence, but France is still a state. And not many people would claim it's inevitably going to collapse. In fact, not many people really spend much time on the situation at all. Or, what is the role of women under sharia in Saudi Arabia, but gender apartheid? Does this mean their state will inevitable dissolve?

There are many ways less dramatic than South African apartheid to deprive people of rights and a voice in the electoral process (one look at American history should prove that).

I don't believe in

I don't believe in pre-ordained futures (too much David Hume in my formative years).

You believe or not doesn't make any difference, because we are talking according to a theory, namely the SATFP, while you have no theory, so you cannot predict, you are helpless;->

There are many in-between steps. Or one can try different labels. Today's France, for example, is not that far from what could be labeled urban apartheid with its segregated banlieues for immigrants; sure they occasionally explode into violence, but France is still a state.

France is not building 8m high walls atound this areas, they also don't build legal barriers either other than denying SPEEs right to laws which is a defining element of State. I mean State by definition a Monopoly of law.

Or, what is the role of women under sharia in Saudi Arabia, but gender apartheid?

I suggest you investigate how "apartheid" is used in IR context. Otherwise you can also qualify Prof. Walt's IR Book writers categorisation as Apartheid;->>

Also, I reminded you:

When South African Apartheid became a useless liability in African affairs, they let her dissolved to State.

Don't make me repeat it again, and again;->
A lot of states of affairs changed in that region recently to make Israel a useless liability to the EUS and in fact for the Jews as well. That is why Mr Yahu has no choice.

Grand Sen~or.

I have a theory that trumps

I have a theory that trumps your theory. It is called logic.

My theory says your theory is invalid and worthless because it has no true predictive power (cf. Hume's critique of inductive reasoning in trying to predict the future). Any claims of 100% predictive accuracy are logically invalid, even that the sun will come up tomorrow (it assumes the principle of uniformity, which is logically invalid).

You claim your theory has 100% certain predictive power; I say it does not. Prove me wrong.

As for apartheid, I will give you the common definition:
apartheid n 1: a social policy or racial segregation involving political and economic and legal discrimination
How do France or Saudi Arabia not fit this definition?

I have a theory that trumps

I have a theory that trumps your theory. It is called logic.
My theory says your theory is invalid and worthless because it has no true predictive power (cf. Hume's critique of inductive reasoning in trying to predict the future). Any claims of 100% predictive accuracy are logically invalid, even that the sun will come up tomorrow (it assumes the principle of uniformity, which is logically invalid).

I suggest you borrow a few "Introduction to Logic" books from your local library and read the chapters about theories.
You are confusing logic with theory.
You don't know :

what is a theory,
why do we invent a theory,
how is it designed,
how is it used,
what are its limitations, etc.

You claim your theory has 100% certain predictive power;

I didn't say or claimed that. What I said is:
We make a prediction according to a theory while you can not make any prediction because you don't have a theory. With a heory we are capable to predict, while you are helpless without a theory.

But, hey, don't worry! you can still look/gaze at the stars to make a prediction and advice Mr Yahu saying:

"Yes Mr Yahu, don't worry, be happy and declare one-sate as the only solution. According to the stars, eventually, Israel will become another France in the ME, the walls will crumble like Berlin Walls, Palestinians will pour into Israel and they will turn Greater Israel to rose garden."

As for apartheid, I will give you the common definition:
apartheid n 1: a social policy or racial segregation involving political and economic and legal discrimination
How do France or Saudi Arabia not fit this definition?

Well, apparently in IR they don't use commonly defined terms. In IR, however they may use the same words, they may define it differently than ordinary language.

BTW, I am not going to ask you "Bring your theory!" because you don't know what theory is;->
I know our prediction according to the SATFP upsets you. Because you don't know enough logic, you don't know how to deal with it;->
I can't help you, but I suggest you learn logic. It really helps..If you don't believe me, take my postings and yours to a Logician at your local University and ask his/her advice.

Look, I am not in favour of the SATFP, but it is the only theory of IR in circulation here and I am not here to invent an alternative theory based on State, etc. I see "state" as a useless concept and keep demonstrating how it is so. You Guys are quite happy with this concept "state" and very attached to it, almost worshipping it, but when I make a prediction according to the SATFP as "state" being just a term of it, you get upset;-> That is good, really good, this means that I am doing my job as expected, it looks like I'll have more fun here as time goes by, thank you;->

Grand Sen~or.

Note: Your complain sounds like this;->
You are intending to go fishing on a boat and want to know how the weather will be. will there be storm, rain, snow, etc. You tern the TV on, or turn your computer on and search for a weather report. And the report reads:
Windy, 40 miles an hour north-westerly, temperature bla.bla..
The report is prepared according to a theory. In honest world they should add at the end od the report "according to the theory such and such", but they don't do it.
Now you have two choice to decide to go to fishing
1. Listen to the report and decide accord to it
2. Lick your finger and stick it out and decide according to it.
Which one you would prefer?
Would you argue; "Naaa, nobody can be 100% sure if it will be windy tomorrow so rather than listening to the weather report I might as well rely on my finger!"
Maybe you would, if you had quite bad experiences with the predictions of your weather-man/woman;->>
Or maybe, to double check, you would also ask your fortune-teller how the weather will be tomorrow. I don't know;->

If you ask me, I would argue like this;->
"I know those idiots make a lot of mistake, but at least they don't lie!";->>

Look, I am not in favour of

Look, I am not in favour of the SATFP, but it is the only theory of IR in circulation here and I am not here to invent an alternative theory based on State, etc. I see "state" as a useless concept and keep demonstrating how it is so.

I have an alternate theory, but unfortunately it does not predict well in detail. Neither does your SATFP, though.

I say that states are composed of governments that take resources from "citizens" or "subjects" who do not resist too hard. For the moment I will ignore the relation between government and citizen, except to point out that citizens supply resources (taxes, inflation, etc that the government uses to buy stuff, and whatever government buys is then unavailable to private citizens to buy). And citizens don't resist too hard when government takes from them.

I'm going to say that government consists of two classes. There are people who decide what to do, that I will call policy-makers. And there are people who do it, that I will call workers. In practice the two functions are mixes, but there are some people who mostly make policy and there are some who mostly work, and I find the theoretical distinction useful.

Governments get organised in different ways, and the organisation makes a big difference in how they function. So for example, some governments don't pay their workers very much. The workers are expected to take bribes from citizens who want them to work. Each worker has a supervisor who could fire him, and so the worker must pay part of his bribe money to his supervisor to pay for letting him keep his job. This system has obvious disadvantages. The government winds up working for rich people, and does little to protect the poor. There can be little central direction for the good of the whole public, because government workers concentrate on the work that individual bribers want done. These governments are inherently weak. But it's hard to change the system even if the top people want to change it. If your supervisor wants his bribe money you had better collect it for him. And if he doesn't want it, you can still collect it and keep it all. You can send spies to try to entice bureaucrats into taking bribes, but when almost everybody does it then getting caught is only an occupational hazard. Can you trust your spies? When somebody gets caught it's only natural they'd try to bribe the spy into letting them go. If you pay your spies bounties to catch people will they catch the innocent to collect the bounty? It's hard.

Here is another approach. When the government can collect lots and lots of money from the citizens, then it can pay workers a reasonable salary and expect them not to take bribes. And a worker who gets caught and fired has lost a big income stream. He risks that every time he takes a small bribe. However, there's still the matter of hiring and firing. That big income stream is worth something, and whoever chooses the workers may choose them for bad reasons. In the USA where political parties change government leaders regularly, it was only natural to fire the government workers and hire new workers who would be loyal to the party in power, every time the leadership changed. This was disruptive. So they made it hard to fire workers. Low-level workers can be fired only for long-term documented incompetence, or sexual harassment, etc. Higher-level workers can be fired somewhat more easily, but still with considerable difficulty. The result is that government workers must do some minimal consistent level of work, and are safer not to express political opinions, and the system operates slowly and somewhat erratically.It used to be that government workers felt that they had considerable job security. But that's no longer the case. While it's still hard to fire them and replace them with someone who is politically loyal to the new politicians, in bad times the government can fire lots of workers and not replace them. The security is much less than it used to be.

I hope that these examples show that the issues are not all policy. The question how a government can get its workers to actually do things efficiently is still not solved. Policy is always constrained by what workers can reasonably be assumed to accomplish.

Now about policy. Your SATFP theory appears to use a metaphor. We suppose that nations are somehow like individual people, and they make decisions based on what they think is good for them. They have "national interests" and they try to achieve their goals.

But in reality, people who try to influence policy see that it doesn't work this way. Or maybe individuals don't work the way the theory describes either.

When you try to influence policy it isn't enough to make convincing arguments that your ideas will further national interests. Each individual who listens to you will think about what your proposed policies will do for *him*. Actual policy makers will think about their careers. Bureau heads (who might be considered workers, but the policy makers rightly check whether these workers will commit to achieving policy goals) will think about their careers too. New policies provide an opportunity to hire new workers and become more important. But they also provide an opportunity to fail and be punished for failure. Very rarely a bureaucrat might be rewarded for success, beyond the opportunity to supervise more people at a higher salary.

Every individual who has any influence on policy will think about how it will affect him personally. (You probably thought of that before you recommended the new policy, didn't you?) They each think about whoever else they care about. In your words I think these individuals care what happens to their SPEEs and that influences their decisions.

Nations don't exactly act in their own best interest. Each individual decision-maker chooses according to his own personal goals. And to get a nation to act according to national interests it's necessary that it somehow have structures that channel the decisions.

One way that was effective for that was monarchy. When the king owns the whole country, he will tend to make decisions that are good for the country. Because it's his possession and he wants it to prosper. To the extent that what's good for the king is good for the nation, his interests are the nation's interests. I think this is where the SATFP started. Kings did their foreign policy with other kings as if they were individuals, because they were.

But now nations don't make their decisions as if it was a nation making choices, trying to get what's good for it. They make decisions some ways to fit the desires of some of their individual people, and some ways at random. This makes it hard to predict what nations will do. Too bad that a good explanation why it's hard to predict government behavior is worth so much less than a good prediction of government behavior.

It's easier to look at national capabilities. In 1900, a nation that did not have iron ore or coal was at a big disadvantage for making weapons etc. The Great Powers were all nations that had iron and coal, though that was not enough -- poland had iron and coal and was a battleground instead. Likewise alsace-lorraine.

In 1940, a nation that did not have oil wells was at a big disadvantage. Germany failed to get the caucasus oil. Japan did get indonesian oil. When US air raids cut back too far the oil from poland, germany was finished. Great powers needed oil, and as the colonial powers lost their colonial oil they stopped being great powers. As US oil is depleted USA is becoming less of a great power. The saudis gave us the oil for Gulf War I. Kuwait sold us the oil to invade iraq, and we sometimes paid more than $100/gallon for fuel delivered where it was needed. The F-22 uses more than 3,000 gallons/hour and that's less than the planes it replaces.

We can't predict well what nations will choose to do, but physical reality and the details of how governments are organised will limit what nations can actually do.

I have an alternate theory,

I have an alternate theory, but unfortunately it does not predict well in detail. Neither does your SATFP, though.

Bring your theory!
BTW, the SATFP is not my theory.
If the prediction I made "doesn't predict well" (whatever that means) then what is all that fuss;->

The rest of your comments is "state" centred. Even when you say:

what nations will do

you mean :

what States will do

This has been already corrected by Professor, remember he wrote "State building" in place of "Nation building".
What I mean is you are confusing "nation" with "state". For me "nation" is as useless as "state" too;->

As I have suggested before, set up your alternative theory then we can compare it with the SATFP and see which one is more useless;->>

Grand Sen~or.

Grand Sen-or, you are trying

Grand Sen-or, you are trying to come up with a workable alternative, a sort of utopia. As part of that you give evidence that existing theory of government is inadequate.

I do not have a method to create a workable alternative, partly because the current system will probably attack any viable alternative with all the ferocity it can muster. So for example, without any real evidence that communist economies would be competitive, existing governments attacked communists with whatever methods they could. At one point more than 10% of the free-world economy was directly devoted to fighting communism.

If you found a method that looked like it would work better than communism, I am certain that existing governments would combat it even more intensely.

I have a description of the current system which I believe is better than your SATFP. SATFP is yours because you are the one who has described it. Other people may actually use it without thinking out how it works and what it means, but that does not make it their theory. Similarly, Darwin's theory of evolution is Darwin's even though many trillions of organisms evolved before Darwin described what they did.

I say SATFP is an adequate description of the foreign policy of monarchs. When you own a whole lot of people who must obey you to a large extent, to a large extent what's good for your possessions is good for you. You will try to make choices that are good for your nation because when you choose badly (make decisions that lose wars etc) it's bad for you personally. When what's good for the monarch is not good for the people he owns, the distinction is likely to be pretty obvious.

It's easy to tell which land and which people a monarch owns. Ask almost anyone. If people say "The king is a fink" and the king's goons don't carry them off to his dungeon, then those people and that place are not part of the kingdom.

That's what a nation used to be. Kings divided up the world among them, and a nation was what one king owned. Simple and obvious. The king had a government -- people he hired to enforce his will. The relationship between government and the governed was like that between sheepdogs and sheep. They fought wolves if necessary and they kept the sheep clustered tight so they were easy to herd. And the shepherd gave his dogs a fraction of the meat.

But then we got a new idea. We would do without a king. The government would be responsible to the people. It was an interesting idea. The trouble was, nobody knew how to make a government that would be responsible to its subjects. Can sheepdogs do what the herd of sheep wants? Somehow the idea turned into keeping the government about the same, but replacing the king with ... with ... something else.

After the revolution somehow the government keeps its old structure. Democratic governments are like monarchies with -- something else -- replacing the king. (In old russia, the czar owned everything ... and yet, it's said that one of the czars on his deathbed said "I never ruled russia. Ten thousand clerks ruled russia." ... There were a lot of serfs who had strict rules. Like, a serf could never travel outside his district unless he had an "internal passport" and written permission from his master. After the revolution, the government owned everything without the czar at the top. And many of the rules for serfs were extended to everybody. Nobody could travel to a different district without an internal passport and permission....)

In the old days theory of foreign policy was simple. It was the king's policy, he did what he wanted. If he did something particularly stupid that perhaps resulted in him losing his kingdom and his head, the story would be told to princes all over, to teach them how to rule better -- so they could keep their kingdoms and their heads.

But when there is no king, somebody else makes policy. And they are responsible to somebody, in theory to all the government's subjects. It's part of the job, that they must come up with plausible explanations for their choices.

And foreign policy theory is the study of those plausible explanations.

I claim that in general people do whatever-the-hell they choose, often at random, informed by whatever factoids they think they know. Afterward they make up plausible explanations why they did what they did. Often the real reasons are something like "I had a headache and I was tired of thinking about it" or "It was just so upsetting not kowing what to do, I finally just picked something to be done with it". Obviously people don't want to admit to that. So there's a fine art to making up reasons that sound plausible. And when people think ahead of time what to do, often one of the major things they do to inform their choice is the explanations they can make up to explain it afterward. If you can't find anything like a good story to explain it, maybe it's a stupid idea. Men who think ahead of time about explaining to their wives how they got arrested in a hotel room with a naked blonde and a packet of cocaine are likely not to go into that hotel room in the first place.

People come up with all sorts of ideas about "national interest" because they want respectable stories to explain foreign policy decisions. The theory is that if you do things to further what you think the national interest is, then you're a good patriotic guy that everybody ought to approve of. But if you do things because they're good for you personally or for your personal friends or your separate SPEE then you're a bad evil nogoodnik that everybody but your friends and SPEE should shun.

And there we are.

Grand Sen-or, you are trying

Grand Sen-or, you are trying to come up with a workable alternative, a sort of utopia. As part of that you give evidence that existing theory of government is inadequate.

As I already told, it is not my job to invent an alternative theory of IR. My job is to show you why you end up with un-solvable problems(?!). In that process I develep draft grammatical structures to do my job, exactly like a builder needs some scaffoldings, I need those temporary structures - not to build an alternative theory, but to show clearly what you are doing, so that may be you will to change.
BTW, did I ever mention "government"??!;->>

I do not have a method to create a workable alternative

Then why do you keep telling us you have an alternative theory?!

because the current system will probably attack any viable alternative

are you realist or paranoid?!

At one point more than 10% of the free-world economy was directly devoted to fighting communism.

In the end they were wise enough to dissolve their Monopoly, although didn't know how to distribute the power to whom. In place they give in to minor scale States, they were deaf to the screams of SPEEs.

If you found a method that looked like it would work better than communism, I am certain that existing governments would combat it even more intensely.

Don't worry, I am not going to find one. All I do is to show them how they end up in this deep shit;->> You see I rely on human intelligence - human-beings capability to access to intellect. So, when they see/realize either they will change or dis-appear my job is finished. I am not here so save any-body;->>

I have a description of the current system which I believe is better than your SATFP. SATFP is yours because you are the one who has described it.

Thank you, but my description of it is not important, any-one who knows about axiomatic systems could do it. The SATFP is not my invention, I had to disclose it for I needed as a tool to do my job;->
Bring your alternative theory Mate! Don't be shy;-))

For the rest of the comments all I can say is;->
Apparently King created the State, then the State eat the King, now we don't have Kings but we have States. If you see some leftover Kings around they are ready meal for the State;->>Now rather than chanting "Long live the King!" we chant "Long live the State!", in fact we worship the State, she even skares the shit out of you, so you can't dare to express reality in front of her. We have made a God out of State. Now when we swear, we swear on her saying "Beim StaaT!" rather than we used to say "Beim Tutatis or beim Jupiter!", And all pray for the State now so-called Jews/Christians/Muslims/Hindus/Budhists/You-name-it/Pope/Prof.Walt, I like that;->>

Grand Sen~or.

"Grand Sen-or, you are trying

"Grand Sen-or, you are trying to come up with a workable alternative, a sort of utopia. As part of that you give evidence that existing theory of government is inadequate."

As I already told, it is not my job to invent an alternative theory of IR.

Grand Sen-or, just as you read what theorists here say to understand their theory, I read what you say. You say we should dissolve state law and let SPEEs have their own law. You are advocating not an alternative theory of government, but an alternative *to* government, you are telling us to create a utopia.

BTW, did I ever mention "government"??!;->>

I don't remember. I don't remember you doing that, you might have but it didn't seem to be central. I say that governments are now central to nations. A nation that does not have a government -- like lithuania or baluchistan -- is only a group of people who share similar customs and ideals ... in short merely a SPEE. But a nation that has a government to enforce that government's laws on it, and an army to keep out other governments, is a real nation.

"I do not have a method to create a workable alternative"

Then why do you keep telling us you have an alternative theory?!

I don't have a workable alternative to traditional governments. I do have an alternative theory to describe what happens now. Similarly, Marx had a complex theory that claimed capitalist economic systems must inevitably have sharper and sharper crises, but Marx gave only vague ideas about alternative economic systems.

"...because the current system will probably attack any viable alternative"

are you realist or paranoid?!

The system tends to ignore alternative *theories* as being beneath notice. But an actual alternative economic or political system will get fought hard as soon as it starts to look viable.

All I do is to show them how they end up in this deep shit;->>

That's fine.

You see I rely on human intelligence - human-beings capability to access to intellect. So, when they see/realize either they will change or dis-appear

That mostly does not work. People seldom look at the long-term. If you show them that the government is in deep shit, their natural thought is "Will it last out my retirement?" and if the answer may be yes, they'll choose to think about it later. Look at all the bankers who saw that we will have a crash, who thought it would last one more year and stayed it.... It's hard for a man who has a steady job doing something counterproductive to give it up and look for as better job doing something more useful. His current job is what he knows. If you've spent your career teaching thugs in third-world countries how to torture effectively, and your government decides that it's time to stop teaching that, where does it leave you? You can get an entry-level job doing something else.

But one good use for a guy who shows people how the system ends up in deep shit is as a comedian. Tell the story in the right way, and people will laugh and laugh and you will be popular. Do it well and you can make a living at it.

Apparently King created the State, then the State eat the King, now we don't have Kings but we have States. If you see some leftover Kings around they are ready meal for the State;->>Now rather than chanting "Long live the King!" we chant "Long live the State!", in fact we worship the State, she even skares the shit out of you, so you can't dare to express reality in front of her.

Yes, exactly. But in the USA the government permits us free speech. You don't have to be afraid to express reality, provided it isn't something the government cares about. And most things, the government doesn't care about. Civilians can say pretty much anything they want provided it's only their opinion, and the government can let them do it because they are no threat.

My Dear J Thomas, Grand

My Dear J Thomas,

Grand Sen-or, just as you read what theorists here say to understand their theory, I read what you say. You say we should dissolve state law and let SPEEs have their own law. You are advocating not an alternative theory of government, but an alternative *to* government, you are telling us to create a utopia.

I have already answered to that, my temporary concepts like SPEE, "right to law", etc are like scaffoldings, they are not alternative to what we have, they are to show how we have ended up in this mess of unsolvable problems (?!).
Don't get carried away with my scaffoldings;->>
You see unless we realize how we ended up here, we won't be able to question our choices.
It is really not my job to propose a multi-law State as an alternative to mono-law State. But it is my job how mono-law state herself is an utopia which left us with utopic problems to solve;->>

Grand Sen~or.

Functionally, there's little

Your post could have been a lot shorter if you'd just admitted that you cannot prove your theory has any predictive power and is therefore useless, but you think it's the best we've got. So, it seems you're willing (if implicitly) to admit that you were wrong in your original assertion that I objected to that if Israel became an apartheid country, it would inevitably cease to be a functioning state, etc. After all, historical determinism went out of style over a hundred years ago. Beyond that, though, this points to the fact that your theory is really worse than useless if one is making policy decisions based on it, just as if Bush decided to invade Iraq because Jesus told him to.

Functionally, there's little difference between your predictions based on your theories and a spittle-flecked fundamentalist on a street corner predicting the world will come to an end because of a theory written in a book centuries ago. Your predictions don't upset me anymore than those who claim the world is going to end in 2012 because the Mayans' theories say so. If you study logic, you will understand this crucial point; you are in the realm of religion, not science. If your theory has no predictive power, then it is useless.

If you learn this basic form of introductory argument, you will progress far beyond all your theories and obscure definitions:

Premise 1: Socrates is a man.
Premise 2: All men are mortal.
Conclusion: Socrates is mortal.

This basic form of argument will serve you well if you understand its implications and apply it to any theories you encounter. And remember, redefining something doesn't change it: You seem to be making a mistake that among those who study semantics is known as 'mistaking the map for the territory, the menu for the meal.' Words are symbols of shared meanings, they are not the things themselves.

Your post could have been a

Your post could have been a lot shorter if you'd just admitted that you cannot prove your theory has any predictive power and is therefore useless,

I made the prediction, your not liking it doesn't make it non-exist. Here let me repeat:

"According to the SATFP Yes, Apartheid is not State, therefore State-worshipping States will create another state if Israel chooses Apartheid."

Please ref the SATFP which I had posted here several times.

Premise 1: Socrates is a man.
Premise 2: All men are mortal.
Conclusion: Socrates is mortal.

Good start Mate! Good start!
You learn Logic, no body is born knowing it, you have to study to learn it.

Words are symbols of shared meanings, they are not the things themselves.

First you learn logic, then we will come to philosophy. I wouldn't jump from Elementary Logic to philosophy, if I were you.
My Friend! I have been honest with you suggesting to learn logic. I knew this could upset you, but that's me. If you find my postings not to your taste, you can always ignore them. Actually I already show you another way out by suggesting you that if you don't believe me, take all the postings to a Logician at the nearest Uni to double check if I am right/wrong, you don't have enough knowledge of logic to do it yourself.

Grand Sen~or.

I remember reading a report

I remember reading a report awhile back that Netanyahu was going to make progress on the two-state solution dependent on US solving the Iranian nuke problem.

That's just Netanyahu being silly.

Just imagine that we worked everything out with iran. Iran agrees to completely give up their nuclear power plan and have no nukes of any sort, sign a peace treaty and a free trade treaty with israel, and give israel all their uranium ore for free.

Would Netanyahu then actually make progress on a two-state solution?

Echo answers mournfully....

Almost as silly...

.. as the idea that Obama can deliver the closure of the Iranian nuclear facility. Walt's right, we may be bargaining with a chip that we are incapable of paying for, and the Israelis probably know that. By linking the two, we give Netanyahu justification for continuing his policies, as it's not a hard sell to the Israeli electorate that the US is promising things it is no position to deliver.

I don't know about any of that....

I'm beginning to think its all smoke & mirrors guys.

http://rawstory.com

Obama simply doesn't have the gonands in the long-run to challenge the Israel hardliners, not even with a full on revolution brewing/exploding & people fed up.....

He will spout off about the process but guess what, in the end the neocons are just going to act like jerks and lie about giving the people a second state/democracy.

Watch and learn I bet they will make a kabuki theater of their "peace process", while at the same time stealing more land & taking more freedoms & another Fallujah incident. It's just for the masses of disaffected voters/people to believe something is happening.

Sadly that's where I'm at now.
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com

I don't believe much Obama does since if he really had the gonads he would stand up to secular fascist state on torture, on CIA black sites, on all the crimes being swept under the rug & he would stop the blanket NSA surveillance of our country because the NSA broke the law.

I don't care who the NSA says they serve. If there's a ton of spies in that outfit, and fundie neocon christains, its clear they are serving Israel's military complex and attacking people on US soil for no reason. When it gets too far people will just revolt like this guy.
http://whatreallyhappened.com

Is it possible it's maybe possible but given the realities on the ground I won't hold up hope on it. Gonalzes & Feith are walking for ordering incredibly fascist torture, and if they walk, that shows where our priorities are with the rule of law. It stops with the state.

It's going to lead the people to topple the government and maybe chaos but then that might be good in the end....if we don't challenge the military AIPAC lobby they will just destroy everything anyway. What a catch twenty two & too bad I'm no optimist.

Iran's nuclear cost/benefit analysis

In a previous post about dealing with a nuclear Iran, Walt wrote in explanation that we need to impress upon Iran the costs associated with being a nuclear power:

Second, we need to explain to Iran that possessing a known nuclear weapons capability is not without its own costs and risks. Today, if a terrorist group somehow obtained a nuclear weapon and then used it, we would not suspect Iran of having provided it and they would face little risk of retaliation. Why not? Because we know they don’t have any weapons right now. But imagine how we might react a decade hence, if we knew that Iran had built a few nuclear weapons and some terrorist group whose agenda was somewhat similar to Iran's managed to explode a bomb somewhere in the world, or even on American soil?

Several commmenters were critical of the analysis, and I agree. I'm pretty sure we wouldn't nuke Iran based on suspicion and I think they know it. It's just not a credible deterrent to their drive for nuclear weapons.

However, and I would be interested in Walt's take on this, the same notion formally declared as doctrine being delivered by Israel. If a nuclear bomb is ever used against Israel while Iran is a nuclear power they would destroy Iran's 10 largest cities, and 10 other critical industrial/infrastructure sites for good measure (or some similar calculus). This would hold true regardless of the source of the weapon, which makes some sense in that it appears that Iran is not only trying to develop nukes for themselves but is proliferating as well.

This "Samson option" would be a credible threat coming from Israel, and also add a fair chunk of change to the cost side of Iran's cost/benefit analysis.

This "Samson option" would be

This "Samson option" would be a credible threat coming from Israel, and also add a fair chunk of change to the cost side of Iran's cost/benefit analysis.

Note that there is no evidence whatsoever that iran even has a nuclear weapons program.

And suppose that a nuclear weapon went off in one of israel's four major cities. Israel would be very much in disarray. Wouldn't egypt and jordan and syria offer humanitarian assistance? And wouldn't the only organisations in those countries able to carry out humanitarian assistance on that scale be their armies? And if they came into israel at all, wouldn't they likely do various unacceptable things like offer humanitarian assistance to palestinians? Israel could not asccept their aid, only aid from trusted countries could come in, by air or sea.

And israel's army would be in considerable disarray too, so that an attack from egypt or syria etc might have a better chance than usual.

So doesn't it make sense for israel to threaten not just iran, but everybody? They should threaten to nuke egypt, jordan, syria, iraq, and libya. Did I leave out anybody? Pakistan. Pakistan definitely, they do have nukes and they have attempted proliferation. It would be silly to nuke iran and not nuke pakistan. Anybody else? Turkey? Algeria? Tunisia? Probably not. Tadjikistan? Turkmenistan? No. Saudi arabia? Of course! Saudi arabia, kuwait. Lebanon? It depends on which way the wind is blowing.

This policy would surely result in improved peace and fellow-feeling in the area, It would reduce tensions and make the middle east a better place to live.

Isn't that implicit? I guess

Isn't that implicit? I guess they could make it explicit when Iran gets nukes, but if Iran decides to nuke Israel, it's almost certainly going to get it back tenfold. Either the Iranians are rational and won't nuke Israel out of hatred or whatever or they're not rational and don't care what comes back at them (if someone isn't rational, then they aren't worried about rational cost/benefit analysis by definition).

What would be more interesting is if Israel said, OK, you Europeans/Americans/etc. have let Iran get nukes despite your assurances, so if Iran nukes Tel Aviv, Israel nukes Washington, Paris, Moscow, Beijing, London, etc. in addition to the obvious return fire at Iran. That would shake things up.

What would be more

What would be more interesting is if Israel said, OK, you Europeans/Americans/etc. have let Iran get nukes despite your assurances, so if Iran nukes Tel Aviv, Israel nukes Washington, Paris, Moscow, Beijing, London, etc. in addition to the obvious return fire at Iran.

You trumped me!

Yes, israel should definitely threaten to nuke the USA.

You trumped me! Yes, israel

You trumped me!

Yes, israel should definitely threaten to nuke the USA.

It'd be an empty threat; they don't have missiles and/or planes with the range to do it.

threaten to nuke the USA.

threaten to nuke the USA.

It'd be an empty threat; they don't have missiles and/or planes with the range to do it.

Maybe he meant the US National Interests.

Grand Sen~or.

They supposedly have

They supposedly have submarines with nuclear missiles.

Assuming they normally stay in the mediterranean, and assuming they threaten us first, we could stop them at gibraltar. If they sometimes send them around to Eilat etc (which doesn't make sense but this is the israeli navy we're talking about), then they could be hard to find. They might likely get in range of DC before we noticed them. I don't know whether they could disguise a submarine as that of another nation, somebody whose submarines we'd leave alone. We might not notice anything going on until after they launch.

The idea doesn't make much sense, except that if we let them get nuked why should they let us off easy?

They supposedly have

They supposedly have submarines with nuclear missiles.

The three Dolphins? They do, but they don't have the operating range to get anywhere near the US.

hey might likely get in range of DC before we noticed them.

No, they won't. The US has extensive anti-submarine detection all across both seaboards (and particularly the Atlantic Seaboard) precisely because the Soviets would try to get in range years ago. You think the Israeli Navy (which, by the way, is a joke - they're the worst of the IDF's services, and notoriously incompetent) is going to be able to pull that off?

"They supposedly have

"They supposedly have submarines with nuclear missiles."

The three Dolphins? They do, but they don't have the operating range to get anywhere near the US.

Wasn't that the sort of thing that won for them in 1967? The egyptians thought the israeli airfoce couldn't reach their airfields. But the israelis managed extra fuel tanks and then the egyptians noticed a flight of planes with US call signs and US insignia, whose pilots had US accents, and they thought they weren't going to get bombed by those planes. For awhile they thought it was actually the US navy bombing them.

You think the Israeli Navy (which, by the way, is a joke - they're the worst of the IDF's services, and notoriously incompetent) is going to be able to pull that off?

I wouldn't know. Agreed, the israeli navy has a bad bumbling reputation. What would we do if we found a russian sub getting reasonably close to US shores? Would we sink it? Let them know we see them, and otherwise just track them? If it's the latter, could the israelis modify a sub to give something close to a russian signature, and get a communications officer with a russian accent?

The whole thing doesn't seem plausible to me. I don't really think the israelis would bomb the USA with one or more missiles. If they wanted to bomb us they'd figure out a way to smuggle a bomb in, and make it look like it was arab terrorists who did it. They'd use their US contacts to find the weak points in our defenses.

I've seen the claim to the effect that 9/11 would not have worked on any other day, that we have interceptors ready to deal with out-of-control planes over the continental USA. But on that particular day the interceptors were not working and their crews were busy playing simulation games going through the motions of dealing with a simulated attack. Through either luck or inside information the 9/11 hijackers got past all our defenses.

Of course I wouldn't say that israel did 9/11, it's just another example of the sort of thing they're famous for. When people automatically say "They can't do that" they find a way to do it after all, using unexpected strengths against their opponents' secret weaknesses.

Wasn't that the sort of thing

Wasn't that the sort of thing that won for them in 1967?

That was bad intelligence on the Egyptians' part (the US, on the other hand, is quite aware of what the Dolphins can and can't do), and, to be bluntly honest, we're not really going to expect surprises from the Israeli Navy in the way that the Israeli Air Force (which is the best branch of their military, by the way) could offer.

Would we sink it? Let them know we see them, and otherwise just track them? If it's the latter, could the israelis modify a sub to give something close to a russian signature, and get a communications officer with a russian accent?

How are you going to modify a Dolphin (which are made by a German company) to have a "Russian signature"? As for the response, I imagine they'd be chased and cornered, then given a chance to leave. Followed shortly thereafter by an angry communique to the Israeli government.

But again, this wouldn't happen, because the Dolphins don't have that kind of operating range to the best of my knowledge.

When people automatically say "They can't do that" they find a way to do it after all, using unexpected strengths against their opponents' secret weaknesses.

Not really. The only reason they look good is because

A. One branch of their military is good (the Air Force), while the Army is largely so-so and the Navy is a joke;

B. They're much better than the surrounding Arab states in terms of military. That said, the Egyptians did have superior equipment in the 1967 War, if I recall correctly, but nothing near as good a trained air force as the Israelis.

Ha! I didn't realize you'd

Ha! I didn't realize you'd just made essentially the same point. Great minds and all that, I guess.

Cost/benefit ad absurdum...

J Thomas and Blue: You

J Thomas and Blue: You misunderstand my point. The doctrine would be declared not as MAD deterrent, but as a deterrent to Iran's pursuing nukes, impacting their cost/benefit calculus about the decision to continue their nuclear aims. Once Iran joins the nuclear club, I imagine the MAD paradigm would be understood by all without explicitly laying it out.

This policy would surely result in improved peace and fellow-feeling in the area, It would reduce tensions and make the middle east a better place to live.

J Thomas: This is Realist internation politics, not sweetness and light and sentimentality. The harsh realities already exist.

Furthermore, there is evidence out there that Iran has a nuclear weapons program. To say, as you did, that there is "no evidence whatsoever", is incorrect, and also ignores the fact that they are actively pursuing the most difficult part of the process (uranium enrichment) in defiance of treaties signed and UNSC resolutions and in the face of UN imposed sanctions. At the same time, they are most certainly pursuing the means to deliver the weapons.

Furthermore, there is

Furthermore, there is evidence out there that Iran has a nuclear weapons program. To say, as you did, that there is "no evidence whatsoever", is incorrect

Oh. Let me rephrase that.

I have not heard of any evidence whatsoever that iran has a nuclear weapons program. I have not heard that the CIA claims it has any evidence whatsoever that iran has a nuclear weapons program.

I have heard people claim that there is evidence, but so far when I have looked at their evidence it has turned out to be completely and entirely bogus.

Do you have some actual evidence, beyond the common-sense belief that of course you would be working on a nuclear weapons program in their place and so would anybody in their position who had a normal sense of self-preservation? That belief is somewhat convincing but it is not in fact evidence.

and also ignores the fact that they are actively pursuing the most difficult part of the process (uranium enrichment) in defiance of treaties signed and UNSC resolutions and in the face of UN imposed sanctions.

There is as yet no evidence that they are pursuing uranium enrichment beyond what would be needed for power reactors. Did they actually sign treaties that said they would not do this?

And anyway, highly-enriched uranium results in very very expensive nuclear bombs. They'd do better to make plutonium breeder reactors and build their bombs with cheap plutonium, if they wanted bombs.

Except that we're doing all this sanctions stuff, and presumably that will end if they actually do get a bomb. At least if we look at the examples of china and india. Before they had nukes there was concern about what would happen if they got nukes. There were various plans to stop china, both by USSR and USA. But once china actually did have nukes it all settled down. And we got completely reconciled to india with nukes. So it might make sense for iran to build an expensive uranium bomb as quick as they can, to show they have one, so we'll lay off. Even if they don't actually want a bomb, we're making such a big fuss about them getting one that they might be better off to get one. Once iran has nukes we won't be in such a big tizzy that they might get them someday.

You could easily just flip

You could easily just flip your argument and say that if Israel is willing to do such a thing then it makes it more urgent for Iran to get nukes to provide a deterrent.

Plus, you ignore all the other positive externalities that might flow from Iran getting nukes that don't necessarily have to do with Israel; regional hegemony, or at least increased regional influence, national pride, the virtual end of any regime change threat from the US and others, the possibility of various aid payments, following the North Korean or Pakistani model, from the US and others in exchange for stopping and starting work on their program. In fact, like Pakistan, once Iran gets nukes, it becomes in the US's interests for there to be stability in Iran, because the fear of the nukes getting stolen trumps most other considerations.

You could easily just flip

You could easily just flip your argument and say that if Israel is willing to do such a thing then it makes it more urgent for Iran to get nukes to provide a deterrent.

If you think so, then you are still misunderstanding my point. The doctrine I hypothesized has Israel nuking Iran only after Israel has taken a nuclear hit and bottom line, with this doctrine in place it makes Iran more likely to be nuked if they have nukes themselves. Deterrence is supposed to lessen your chances of being attacked. The hypothesized doctrine links Iran's fate to Israel's in certain situations, and it would then be in Iran's existental interest to NOT see Israel nuked.

And regarding your list of positives -- yes, these are the reasons Iran is pursuing nuclear weapons and their delivery systems. The hypothesized doctrine would change Iran's cost/benefit calculus and IMO, in and of itself would not deter Iran from their current course.

The doctrine I hypothesized

The doctrine I hypothesized has Israel nuking Iran only after Israel has taken a nuclear hit and bottom line, with this doctrine in place it makes Iran more likely to be nuked if they have nukes themselves.

If iran did get nukes, it would then make sense for them to make the symmetric threat -- if anybody in the world bombs iran, they bomb israel in response just in case.

Maybe so, but it's basically

Maybe so, but it's basically a moot point. Nobody is going to nuke Iran, and if this was the only thing Isreal had to worry about with regard to potential Iranian nuclear weapons then they could rest pretty easily.

But the point you raise is a good one, and I would fine tune the doctrine to exclude attacks which certainly came from present day known nuclear powers. If Russia for some reason nukes Tel Aviv with a bomber or missile, clearly they have done so without any help from Iran, at least in the aspects dealing with nuclear and delivery technology.

I thgink its apalling how

I thgink its apalling how much influence AIPAC has in Washington DC. I hope that this president can do something to help the palestinians. Thogh based on his actions in other areas thus far I wont hold my breath

If Obama and Emanuel are

If Obama and Emanuel are looking for some sticks to use, what's wrong with straightforward sanctions? That's what countries typically use to get other countries to behave in the desired way.

The problem is that Israel has a good degree of support from Congress here in America, and you need Congress to do a good set of sanctions. That means that if the US President tried to impose sanctions on Israel, Congress would most likely undercut him.

A Firmer Hand from the International Community

The sanctions have to be put forward in a package, applying to both the Israelis and the Palestinians for failing to live up to international mandates.

Rather than continue to treat the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as one in which the two parties need to have their hands held so they can be brought to the negotiation table, it should be treated as an international problem calling for the firm imposition of international law on two parties that have frequently and outrageously violated international law for years.

No durable solution will ever be "negotiated" between Israel and Palestine. The power equation is too asymmetrical and the incentives aren't there. But everyone in the world knows what the solution to this conflict is supposed to look like, in most cases down to the neighborhood.

So why not get every major player other than the Israelis and Palestinians together; forge a UN-approved final status plan; draw a line on a map; say, "Here's Israel and here's Palestine"; declare a Palestinian state; demand that the nationals from each side get themselves on the right side of the border within a reasonable time frame; and stipulate the sanctions that will be imposed on the state of Israel and the state of Palestine for failure to comply.

It's high time we stopped letting these two little outlaw communities push the international community around with their endless acting out.

It's a nice idea, but

It's a nice idea, but outsiders - the US in the case of Israel, and the Arab states and possibly Iran in the case of the Palestinians - have too much vested in both of these communities and the areas they govern (particularly Jerusalem, which is sacred to Judaism and holds the third-holiest site in Islam) to simply cut them off, at least in my opinion.

If it was the world in

If it was the world in general creating a solution, they could take jerusalem for the UN headquarters. The UN shouldn't be in NY, jerusalem would be a much better place for it.

That approach worked when virginia and maryland were talking about war over borders. They gave the land to the federal government to become Washington DC instead.

It's not cutting them off ...

... It's taking charge. The outside parties have too much invested not to take firmer control.

European and American Jews have too much invested in Israel, the pride of Western Jewry, to see it fall into the hands of thuggish, authoritarian tea-baggers like Lieberman. Arabs and other Muslims have too much invested in holding onto Palestine and Jerusalem to see it lost by the weak and disorganized Palestinians who are otherwise headed for certain defeat.

These two peoples need to be saved from themselves.