Talking with the Taliban?

Fri, 05/08/2009 - 11:51am

Should we talk to the Taliban or not? Hassani Sherjan says we shouldn't, because they are "one of the most repressive organizations on earth." For him, the key to success is "making changes at the community level." In particular:

The government and its allies can best weaken the insurgency by better protecting the population, organizing local citizens' groups to cooperate on economic development, and hiring more people from every part of the country into the growing Afghan Army and police force."

But who's going to pay for the massive increase in the Afghan army and police that he's recommending (and that seems to be a key part of current U.S. plans)? Afghanistan's economy has only two main sectors: opium cultivation and foreign assistance (comprising nearly 80 percent of Afghan GDP). We're trying to eradicate the former (which means Afghans end up growing less lucrative crops), which will make it harder for the central government get sufficient revenues to support larger security forces. So where will they get them? Answer: from you and me and other folks in the "international community." Given that the Afghan economy won’t have the resources to support all those hired guns for years (if ever), we are in effect making Afghanistan a permanent ward. According to William Byrd at the World Bank:

While there is a strong case for larger and more effective Afghan security forces, this will cost substantial amounts of additional money -- roughly estimated at up to $2 billion per year. It is clear that Afghanistan will be unable to provide anywhere near this amount from its own revenues for many years -- likely two decades -- to come. Indeed, projections suggest that additional security sector expenditures at such levels will exceed the country’s entire domestic revenues (currently in the US$700 million range per annum) for more than a decade."

That reality suggests that negotiations designed to probe Taliban intentions and to test their cohesion deserve a serious look. On that point, see Andrew Blandford's discussion of the pros and cons of negotiations at the Harvard Negotiation Law Journal. He's no idealist, and is obviously aware of the pitfalls of premature talks. But his bottom line is sharply at odds with Sherjan's adamant rejection of any talks:

The U.S. must pursue numerous strategies if it is to fulfill its objectives in Afghanistan: it must convince Pakistan to increase its pressure on the Taliban in the tribal areas, compel NATO allies to dedicate more troops to Afghanistan, and build the capacity of the Afghan government to provide much-needed services to its people in order to lure them back from the appeal of authoritarian stability. These strategies are not alternatives to a negotiated agreement, but rather complements to negotiating with the reconcilables. Barring total victory for the U.S. over a pervasive, locally-based force, the question is not whether we will negotiate with the Taliban, but when, under what circumstances, and with which members? It may indeed be too soon to push for direct talks with the Taliban because the conditions are not yet ripe to negotiate an acceptable outcome for the U.S., and serious costs may result. But it is probably never too soon for indirect talks, in order to feel out the Taliban's interests and seek a path to a ZOPA [zone of potential agreement] -- all while striving to increase bargaining power by improving the U.S.'s BATNA [best alternative to no agreement] and decreasing the attractiveness of the Taliban's BATNA."

If Richard Holbrooke read the Times this morning, I hope he reads this, too.

MASSOUD HOSSAINI/AFP/Getty Images



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Current Pakistan govt is a kleptocracy

it sez: "The U.S. must pursue numerous strategies if it is to fulfill its objectives in Afghanistan: it must convince Pakistan to increase its pressure on the Taliban in the tribal areas..."

Why? 2/3 of Pakistanis are rural and poor. The government gives them nothing. The Pakistani govt is for the feudal elite.

All American assumptions fail to realize that the current government in Pakistan is a charade. Want to fix things?

Get the Pakistani govt to institute land reforms (India did this 60 yrs ago), education, public works in the rural areas with US and Western $. NO US CONTRACTORS. Hire locals.

more details on this?
see:

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=174880

Mr. Holbrooke needs to learn English

He says P-a-k-i-s-t-a-n with the flat a,- like in A-m-e-r-i-c-a. Of course like Walt, Mearsheimer and practically any other civilised human being who have studied English and have been raised in a domisphere under influence of British Civilisation knows, it is pronounced with an -a- like in Carlsbad.

It reminds me of the start of the Iraq War, when all those Texas folks around Bush said: A-y-r-a-c-k.

It is off course disastrous and should never be allowed to happen. If they can't even get the name right, people in civilised parts of the world wonders, what can they get right?

Good Evening, Here is a list

Good Evening,

Here is a list that -- as far as I am aware -- for the first time attempts to give an overview of all violence in Pakistan in 2008-09

My personal view is that these attacks impossibly can have added to the stability of Pakistan, and remember the bombing of the Mariott attack came just in the middle of the spike in drone attacks.

What "objectives"?

same quote: "The U.S. must pursue numerous strategies if it is to fulfill its objectives in Afghanistan..."

ahem.

What are the US objectives in Af?

To forever stop terrorism, ever, ever?

Good luck.

Read John Mueller's essay in the April/May Foreign Affairs.

Yes, Taliban are horrible. So are a lot of other people. cf. Africa.

What are the US objectives in

What are the US objectives in Af?

Yeah Professor please tell us what are those objectives in AfPak?

Eliminate Taliban using organized armies?!

Yeah, Good luck!

Grand Sen~or.

Should US negotiate w/ Taliban? No. The US should leave.

Should US negotiate w/ Taliban? No. The US should leave.

Zbigniew Brzezinski on Wars of Choice:

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/print/64957

"A war of choice, in contrast, is one in which the United States seeks to alter the character of other states and justifies going to war with ambitious ideological and moral goals. "

the numbers are way off

The $2B to provide police/military to a country with "revenue" of 700M caught my eye.

The referenced William Byrd article expects an army of 134K and police of 80K, so call it 200K people. A salary of $2B works out to $10K per person per year, which is excessive. I don't know what Afghan police/soldiers make, but a quick google search for India says newly entering officers (lieutenants) make Rs 10K per month, which is about $2K per year. So you can staff that size of Afghan army+police for about $400M ?

The official revenue of $700M probably ignores the value of the opium trade, which wikipedia estimates at $4B in 2007. Of course, one expects that once peacetime conditions are established, this might come under control. Or, better still, the Afghan government might find a way to legally sell opium for medical purposes. Anyway, my point is that the revenue picture is not so bleak.

In a more philosophical vein, if the cost of a country's police+army is so mismatched to its revenue, such a country would not exist. So the reality is that much of the cost of such security is not monetized: in other words, once the country is back in equilibrium, they will re-establish whatever crude tribal justice system that they have had so far. So the police numbers can be reduced in due course. Military numbers depend upon neighbors' policies, so that's harder to control

The $2B to provide

The $2B to provide police/military to a country with "revenue" of 700M caught my eye.

well it is costly to imagine States and Nations but apparently it pays back in the long run from unexpected resources;->

In a more philosophical vein, if the cost of a country's police+army is so mismatched to its revenue, such a country would not exist.

Who says that it exists?! Since when imagined states, nations exist?!
I bet you also think that the State of Israel exists;->>

BTW, here is a handbook for you about how to imagine your own state;->

Imagined Communities
by Benedict Anderson 1991

anyone who thinks that States exist should read this book to expand their imagination to cover states;->>

and I better change those SATFP axioms

1. It is imagined that States exist.

3. It is imagined that there exists a competitive arena where states acts as they do.

4. It is imagined that there exists no central authority in that arena that can enforce moral or legal constraints.

Grand Sen~or.

Look - it all sounds nice and

Look - it all sounds nice and rozy - talk.

Talk talk talk.

But

1) Talk presuposes dialogue.
When we talked to the Ruskies about our missiled defense shield, we sent all kinds of "talkers" to Moscow. Moscow was dismayed - they were not senior enough - and all in all, they were salesmen. This wasn't talk, this was hocus pocus.
When Obama says he will talk to Ahmed - he makes one little youtube clip - is that talk? Then he "talks" to Chavez - but is that talk - taking his book, and not giving him one in return, or at least publicly giving him answer to the book, and offering him some food for thought. Effectively, Obama has not "talked with" neither Chavez or Ahmed. He has sponken "at" one, and had been spoken "to" by the other. Period. That's not talk, but it pases for talk, and its BS. If that's what people mean by talk, well then its politically pathetic.

2) The idea of talking, means there is something to exchange. Otherwise, why are you scrabling to talk. What, Mr. Walt, have we to say to the Taleban.

I would suggest, that suggesting wwe talk, without suggesting content, reflects a certain childishness on your part Mr. Walt. It's like general impression I get with half of your post - some kind of disconnect with the real world.

At this stage, talking to the taleban, will be interpreted only one way - as concession, as talk of defeat. And perhaps, that's all we have to talk about, from your POV Mr. Walt?

At this stage, talking to the

At this stage, talking to the taleban, will be interpreted only one way - as concession, as talk of defeat. And perhaps, that's all we have to talk about, from your POV Mr. Walt?

So, how many years do you want us to fight in afghanistan before we admit defeat? 15? 30? 50?

yeah. it's mainly talk.

List ready depicting all violence in P.akistan 2006-09

Now my list on Wikipedia , which for the first time in the World provides an overview of all violence in Pakistan from 2006-09 is ready. In the coming days I will plot all the Drones attack in on a map, and all the major loss of life due to domestic Pakistani action.

What is allready clear is that The Unites States of America is conducting Hightech Warfare with their typical [over]-reliance and love for technology-- amongst some of the poorest people on Earth. It will lead to nothing, despite more hatred , wish for revenge -- and terror.

But the people in the US administrations with the clouts - all have ties to the Israel Lobby. And from Israels point of view, this is normal; they have known violence and terror for 3 score years and really couldn't care less if the rest of the World should share the same medicine. Actually form their point of view it might be beneficial for the rest of the world [us>/em>], because then we might begin to share Israels strategies and view of the World. By getting as many people as possible to share its strategies -- this is the only way this colony with an inhabitable surface-area the size of Delaware and the adjacent County of Maryland can survive.

BS alert

The deranged conspiracist strikes again. In the next episode: How Israel was behind the Mexican-American War.

BS alert

The deranged conspiracist strikes again. In the next episode: How Israel was behind the Mexican-American War.