Posted By Stephen M. Walt Share

As attention remains riveted on Iran, readers should not miss two important pieces on the Israel-Palestine front. The first is Tony Judt's blockbuster op-ed from today's New York Times, which demolishes most of the myths about Israel's "settlements" and calls them -- all of them -- what they are: illegal.

My only difference with Judt's analysis -- and it is a minor one -- is his suggestion that Israeli leaders have repeatedly "hoodwinked" American officials about the nature of the settlement enterprise. That may be true of George W. Bush, who seemed to accept Ariel Sharon's world-view rather uncritically, but it's not true of most of Bush's predecessors. Every U.S. president since Lyndon Johnson formally opposed the creation of settlements, and some administrations (e.g., Richard Nixon's) also referred to them as contrary to international law. And even George W. Bush repeatedly called on Israel to stop expanding the settlements, to little avail, of course.

The real problem has been that no president has been able to put sustained pressure on Israel to stop building settlements, because to do so would trigger reflexive opposition from AIPAC and the other hard-line elements in the Israel lobby. Jimmy Carter and George H. W. Bush both took on the lobby and were able to make some modest progress, but both paid a significant price for doing so. Subsequent U.S. presidents have effectively sub-contracted their Middle East policy to individuals (e.g., Dennis Ross and Martin Indyk under Clinton and Elliott Abrams under Bush) who were connected to key groups in the lobby and personally opposed to putting any pressure on Israel, so it's hardly surprising that settlement expansion continued even though it was contrary to official U.S. policy. Moreover, as the Washington Post recently reported, the State Department issued an opinion in 1979 that the settlements were "inconsistent with international law." That opinion, the Post reports, "has never been revoked or revised." But it has been ignored.

The result of all this, as Judt makes clear, has been to "create facts" that make a two-state solution increasingly difficult -- and maybe impossible -- to achieve. But don't forget former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's warning: "If the two-state solution collapses, Israel will face a South African style struggle for political rights." If Israel continues on its present trajectory, in other words, it will become an apartheid state. And once that happens, Olmert said, "The state of Israel is finished." By turning a blind eye towards the settlement project for decades, in short, Israel's so-called "friends" helped pave the road to a very bleak future.

Judt will undoubtedly receive the usual denunciations from hardliners committed to defending the status quo; we can expect the usual retorts in the letters' section from Abe Foxman of the ADL or David Harris of the AJC. But anyone with a genuine commitment to Israel's future should welcome his honest and eloquent piece. And the Times deserves credit for running it.

The second piece is a terrific commentary by Helena Cobban on the internal paralysis within the Palestinian national movement, and especially the current weakness of Fatah. Most people already know that Fatah and Hamas are bitter enemies, and that this rift is an obstacle to peace. But Cobban shows that the problems are in fact deeper than that, and will require sustained attention to repair.

The dysfunctional nature of current Palestinian leadership has many origins, and lots of different groups bear responsibility for it. As Rashid Khalid documents in The Iron Cage, the British did their best to decapitate the Palestinian Arab community during the 1936-1939 Arab revolt, and the expulsion of the Palestinians at the hands of the Zionists/Israelis in 1948 further decimated and divided the community. The Arab states subsequently reinforced these divisions by backing competing Palestinian factions in order to advance their own selfish interests. Key PLO leaders -- including Yasser Arafat -- made serious blunders themselves. Israel also did its best to reinforce Palestinian disunity by aiding Hamas in the late 1980s and by arresting or assassinating Palestinian leaders, and especially anyone who looked like they might be legitimate leader and capable foe. Given the various forces that have worked to keep the Palestinians weak and divided, it would be shocking if their leadership were not problematic.

But if our goal is peace, then we need strong and legitimate leaders on both sides. It follows that if Israel wants a durable peace, it has an interest in doing everything it can to strengthen Palestinian leaders. As Barack Obama clearly understands, halting settlement expansion and removing the hundreds of checkpoints that are strangling Palestinian daily life would be an important step in both symbolic and practical terms. Agreement on the basic principles of a two-state solution -- starting with an agreement on borders -- would strengthen moderate leaders and force Hamas to choose between being part of the peace process or being increasingly irrelevant to the Palestinian future. Today, Israel's long-term interests are advanced not by encouraging division and rancor on the other side but by helping foster a greater sense of national unity and the creation of strong and effective Palestinian institutions. The multinational effort to train Palestinian security forces (under the leadership of U.S. general Keith Dayton) is a step in the right direction, but it will only succeed if viable statehood in the near future is a realistic possibility.

When making war, it is good to face an adversary who is weak and divided. But when it comes time to make peace, it is best if one's former foe is competent, legitimate, efficient, and able to live up to its commitments. Convincing Israelis of that radical but rather obvious idea will be one of Barack Obama's most important tasks.

 
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GRENDAL

10:57 PM ET

June 22, 2009

Tony Judt

This is a blockbuster op-ed? Tony Judt has been saying the same tired song for a long time. He could have published his article from 2003 and no one would have known the difference.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16671
The Palestinians turned down Olmert's generous offer, because they think by waiting they will win.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/28/AR2009052803614.html

 

BKAPLOVITZ

12:05 AM ET

June 23, 2009

Memo to the Times: The Whole Country is Illegal to Tony

From Commentary Magazine's "Contentions" Weblog
June 22, 2009

Memo to the Times: The Whole Country is Illegal to Tony

By Jonathan Tobin

Tony Judt is a very influential New York intellectual. From his perch at New York University, he sends forth books and lengthy articles that appear in influential forums. When Judt writes lengthy essays, the New York Times frees up room on the op-ed page while guys like Roger Cohen and Ross Douthat have to make do with being published in the on-line version only.

But all you really need to know about the 1,600+ word essay that appears in the Times today is that Judt couldn’t be more disingenuous if he tried. The piece, titled “Fictions on the Ground,” leads with his memories of being a kibbutz volunteer in the early 1960s. With that, Judt attempts to establish himself as someone who is – or used to be – a supporter of the pre-1967 Jewish State. That’s an important distinction for him to try and make since the point of the piece is to demonize the country for its supposedly illegal settlements on the West Bank. Mind you, he doesn’t make a case for their illegality. He merely asserts it as if there were no argument about their legal status. After all, from what sovereign nation did Israel “steal” the West Bank when it took control of it during a defensive war in 1967? Not Jordan, since almost no one recognized its illegal occupation of the West Bank and Jerusalem from 1949 to 1967, after its British-led army invaded the former Mandate of Palestine. Not from a sovereign Palestinian Arab state, since none has ever existed (in no small measure because the Palestinian Arabs rejected the United Nation’s offer of a partition of the country in 1947).

Equally absurd is Judt’s assertion that Israel “needs settlements” because it conforms to a pioneer image of the country that sells to the world. In fact, Israel is doing everything possible to market itself to the world as the opposite of the settler stereotype, instead focusing on its attractive beaches, attractive Israelis (paging Bar Rafael, Sports Illustrated’s swimsuit covergirl), high tech industries, and medical innovations. In other words, Judt hasn’t the faintest idea what he’s talking about when he tries to explain anything about the country.

But far worse is the thing that Judt doesn’t mention in this lengthy diatribe about illegal settlements and Benjamin Netanyahu’s strategies. For all of his attempts to treat Jewish communities over the green line as illegal (including the Jerusalem suburbs where most “settlers” live), anyone who’s read Judt’s previous writings about the country knows very well that he considers the existence of the entire state to be immoral if not illegal. That’s right. As he explained in an even lengthier essay in The New York Review of Books in October 2003, he’s not a Zionist of any sort but someone who believes Israel needs to be dismantled and replaced by a “binational” state in which Zionism will be extirpated.

There are those who will argue that someone can advocate for such a thing to happen without understanding that it would almost certainly involve the destruction of the Jewish population of the country along with the Zionism. But that’s beside the point. Anyone who supports bi-nationalism and considers Zionism a sort of crime is in no position to be an arbiter of the legality of anything that Israel does. All of which leads us to wonder about the egregious lack of judgment on the part of the Times’s editors in allowing Judt to pontificate on this subject without mentioning his assertion that Tel Aviv, and yes, that kibbutz where he once volunteered, is more or less illegal too.

--Posted By Jonathan Tobin - 06.22.2009 - 5:55 PM

Copyright © 1997-2009 Commentary Magazine
All Rights Reserved

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/tobin/70952

 

CLINT

2:43 AM ET

June 23, 2009

Exactly. It is illegal -- and

Exactly. It is illegal -- and it was an unfortunate colonial mistake to grant it countryhood -- after much zionist terrorism I might add. Now that it does exist, it should apologize and not pretend it has some God given right to occupy Arab land and import Jews from all over the globe to occupy other peoples' territories, while denying the rightful citizens their right of return.

Does Israel have a right to exist? Sure, if it is democratic non-apartheid state. If it is a non-democratic aparthied state it should go the way of Apartheid South Africa.

Here is what Gandhi had to say:

Gandhi on Jews & Middle-East

A Non-Violent Look at Conflict & Violence

Article Written on November 20, 1938
Published in Harijan on November 26, 1938
This Web Page Last Updated: May 23,2009

[It is of utmost importance to remember the time of this writing. It is 1938, Hitler is ruling Germany, and the clouds of a terrible conflict have begun to form. Gandhi's article shows his incredible sense of right and wrong, his blind faith in his methodology, and his profound vision of things to come. -Ed.]

by Mohandas K. Gandhi

Several letters have been received by me asking me to declare my views about the Arab-Jew question in Palestine and the persecution of the Jews in Germany. It is not without hesitation that I venture to offer my views on this very difficult question.

My sympathies are all with the Jews. I have known them intimately in South Africa. Some of them became life-long companions. Through these friends I came to learn much of their age-long persecution. They have been the untouchables of Christianity. The parallel between their treatment by Christians and the treatment of untouchables by Hindus is very close. Religious sanction has been invoked in both cases for the justification of the inhuman treatment meted out to them. Apart from the friendships, therefore, there is the more common universal reason for my sympathy for the Jews.

But my sympathy does not blind me to the requirements of justice. The cry for the national home for the Jews does not make much appeal to me. The sanction for it is sought in the Bible and the tenacity with which the Jews have hankered after return to Palestine. Why should they not, like other peoples of the earth, make that country their home where they are born and where they earn their livelihood?

Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs. What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct. The mandates have no sanction but that of the last war. Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home.

The nobler course would be to insist on a just treatment of the Jews wherever they are born and bred. The Jews born in France are French in precisely the same sense that Christians born in France are French. If the Jews have no home but Palestine, will they relish the idea of being forced to leave the other parts of the world in which they are settled? Or do they want a double home where they can remain at will? This cry for the national home affords a colorable justification for the German expulsion of the Jews.

But the German persecution of the Jews seems to have no parallel in history. The tyrants of old never went so mad as Hitler seems to have gone. And he is doing it with religious zeal. For he is propounding a new religion of exclusive and militant nationalism in the name of which many inhumanity becomes an act of humanity to be rewarded here and hereafter. The crime of an obviously mad but intrepid youth is being visited upon his whole race with unbelievable ferocity. If there ever could be a justifiable war in the name of and for humanity, a war against Germany, to prevent the wanton persecution of a whole race, would be completely justified. But I do not believe in any war. A discussion of the pros and cons of such a war is therefore outside my horizon or province.

But if there can be no war against Germany, even for such a crime as is being committed against the Jews, surely there can be no alliance with Germany. How can there be alliance between a nation which claims to stand for justice and democracy and one which is the declared enemy of both? Or is England drifting towards armed dictatorship and all it means?

Germany is showing to the world how efficiently violence can be worked when it is not hampered by any hypocrisy or weakness masquerading as humanitarianism. It is also showing how hideous, terrible and terrifying it looks in its nakedness.

Can the Jews resist this organized and shameless persecution? Is there a way to preserve their self-respect, and not to feel helpless, neglected and forlorn? I submit there is. No person who has faith in a living God need feel helpless or forlorn. Jehovah of the Jews is a God more personal than the God of the Christians, the Musalmans or the Hindus, though, as a matter of fact in essence, He is common to all the one without a second and beyond description. But as the Jews attribute personality to God and believe that He rules every action of theirs, they ought not to feel helpless. If I were a Jew and were born in Germany and earned my livelihood there, I would claim Germany as my home even as the tallest gentile German may, and challenge him to shoot me or cast me in the dungeon; I would refuse to be expelled or to submit to discriminating treatment . And for doing this, I should not wait for the fellow Jews to join me in civil resistance but would have confidence that in the end the rest are bound to follow my example. If one Jew or all the Jews were to accept the prescription here offered, he or they cannot be worse off than now. And suffering voluntarily undergone will bring them an inner strength and joy which no number of resolutions of sympathy passed in the world outside Germany can. Indeed, even if Britain, France and America were to declare hostilities against Germany, they can bring no inner joy, no inner strength. The calculated violence of Hitler may even result in a general massacre of the Jews by way of his first answer to the declaration of such hostilities. But if the Jewish mind could be prepared for voluntary suffering, even the massacre I have imagined could be turned into a day of thanksgiving and joy that Jehovah had wrought deliverance of the race even at the hands of the tyrant. For to the god fearing, death has no terror. It is a joyful sleep to be followed by a waking that would be all the more refreshing for the long sleep.

It is hardly necessary for me to point out that it is easier for the Jews than for the Czechs to follow my prescription. And they have in the Indian satyagraha campaign in South Africa an exact parallel. There the Indians occupied precisely the same place that the Jews occupy in Germany. The persecution had also a religious tinge. President Kruger used to say that the white Christians were the chosen of God and Indians were inferior beings created to serve the whites. A fundamental clause in the Transvaal constitution was that there should be no equality between the whites and colored races including Asia tics. There too the Indians were consigned to ghettos described as locations. The other disabilities were almost of the same type as those of the Jews in Germany. The Indians, a mere handful, resorted to satyagraha without any backing from the world outside or the Indian Government. Indeed the British officials tried to dissuade the satyagrahis (soldiers of non-violence) from their contemplated step. World opinion and the Indian Government came to their aid after eight years of fighting. And that too was by way of diplomatic pressure not of a threat of war.

But the Jews of Germany can offer satyagraha under infinitely better auspices than Indians of South Africa. The Jews are a compact, homogeneous community in Germany. they are far more gifted than the Indians of South Africa. And they have organized world opinion behind them. I am convinced that if someone with courage and vision can arise among them to lead them in nonviolent action, the winter of their despair can in the twinkling of an eye be turned into the summer of hope. And what has today become a degrading man-hunt can be turned in to a calm and determined stand offered by unarmed men and women possessing the strength of suffering given to them by Jehovah. It will be then a truly religious resistance offered against the godless fury of dehumanized man. The German Jews will score a lasting victory over the German gentiles in the sense that they will have converted that latter to an appreciation of human dignity. They will have rendered service to fellow-Germans and proved their title to be the real Germans as against those who are today dragging, however unknowingly, the German name into the mire.

And now a word to the Jews in Palestine. I have no doubt that they are going about it the wrong way. The Palestine of the Biblical conception is not geographical tract. It is in their hearts. But if they must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs. They should seek to convert the Arab heart. The same God rules the Arab heart, who rules the Jewish heart. They can offer satyagraha in front of the Arabs and offer themselves to be shot or thrown in to the Dead Sea without raising a little finger against them. They will find the world opinion in the their favor in their religious aspiration. There are hundreds of ways of reasoning with the Arabs, if they will only discard the help of the British bayonet. As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them.

I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regarded as an unwarrantable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds.

Let the Jews who claim to be the chosen race prove their title by choosing the way of non-violence for vindicating their position on earth. Every country is their home including Palestine, not by aggression but by loving service. A Jewish friend has sent me a book called The Jewish Contribution to Civilization by Cecil Roth. It gives a record of what the Jews have done to enrich the word's Literature, art, music, drama, science, medicine, agriculture, etc. Given the will, the Jews can refuse to be treated as the outcaste of the West, to be despised or patronized. He can command the attention and respect of the world by being man, the chosen creation of God, instead of being man who is fast sinking to the brute and forsaken by God. They can add to their many contributions the surpassing contribution of non-violent action.

© 1987 Navajivan Trust.

 

BRETT

8:53 AM ET

June 23, 2009

denying the rightful citizens

denying the rightful citizens their right of return.

Citizens of what? Mandatory Palestine in the British Empire? The Palestinians in refugee camps, by and large, have no citizenship (except in Jordan, which gave them citizenship and now has a majority of its population made up of descendants from 1948 refugees).

Nor do they have a "right of return". Most of their homes no longer exist, and most of the population that actually left or was expelled is either ancient or dead. Their descendants have never set foot on the land, never lived in the area, and thus have no "right" to it unless anyone can make a land claim for territory controlled by their ancestors (the Sephardic Jews, by the way, would probably like to have compensation for their homes and property that was confiscated when they were largely ethnically cleansed from most of the Middle East after 1948) at some point in time. "Squatters' Rights" and all.

 

CLINT

10:06 AM ET

June 23, 2009

Yes, the citizens who were

Yes, the citizens who were living there before have a right to return to their homes from which they were ethically-cleansed. Incidentally, I absolutely agree that the Sephardic Jews do have a right of return to Egypt etc. also.

The people who do NOT have a right to be citizens in the Middle East due only to their religion are e.g. the Jews from Moldova, like Avigdor Lieberman.

 

BRETT

7:09 PM ET

June 23, 2009

Yes, the citizens who were

Yes, the citizens who were living there before have a right to return to their homes from which they were ethically-cleansed.

I agree that the individuals who were actually expelled and/or fled deserve some type of compensation (although it must be noted that they've rejected a number of plans for at least partial return of refugees - in 1948, for example, Israel offered to allow about 200,000 of the refugees to return in exchange for peace and recognition).

That said, I'm not too fond of the whole idea, because it amounts to trying to set back the clock to a time that no longer exists. Most of the homes in pre-1967 Israel are long gone, and their lands confiscated - just like what happened with the Sephardic Jews' homes and property. It was a population exchange, and people need to let it go.

That's one thing I like about the Arab Peace Initiative. It doesn't call for unlimited Right of Return - it calls for a decent solution to be found for the issue of the refugees. That's about all you can realistically do.

 

CLINT

3:46 AM ET

June 24, 2009

"I'm not too fond of the

"I'm not too fond of the whole idea, because it amounts to trying to set back the clock to a time that no longer exists"

Yeah, like the whole premise of Zionism that a couple of Jews were wandering around the Levant 2000 years ago is a reason to terrorize 700,000 Palestinians out of their homes to make a fake homeland for people who never lived in the region.

Like Avigdor Liberman from Moldova.

Stop being a polite disingenuous dumbass.

 

CLINT

10:29 AM ET

June 23, 2009

"The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" by Ilan Pappe

You might also read Israeli author Ilan Pappe's book, "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" if you want to know more about who lived in what is now Israel and how they were pushed, cajoled, terrorized and generally ethnically-cleansed out of their homes:

http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe/dp/1851684670

 

FULANA

2:57 PM ET

June 23, 2009

I don't see why Palestinians

I don't see why Palestinians who have been absent for 60 years should not have the right to return, but descendants of Jews who have been absent for almost 2,000 years are welcomed back with open arms.

 

BRETT

7:13 PM ET

June 23, 2009

The Palestinians don't have

The Palestinians don't have it because most of the population that actually lived in pre-1967 Israel and fled in the wake of the 1948 War is dead, and the idea of inter-generational rights to a piece of territory is a can of worms that should not be opened (since it actually justifies the Zionist effort as well, since they also lived on the land at one point). The Zionist Jews didn't have it either.

Both are stupid ideas, because it involves returning to a past that no longer exists (lots more people, along with most of the land and property in Israel proper no longer existing for the refugees), and ignores the fact that the refugees are the remnant of a greater population exchange that included the expulsions of the sephardic Jews from the Arab World and the confiscations of their property.

 

CLINT

8:36 PM ET

June 23, 2009

1-state solution

Yes a one (democratic) state solution is best.

Since by 2030 there will be more Arabs in "greater Israel" Arabs will eventually rule the region, as it should be.

All non-Sephardic Jews should be expelled from the region.

 

FULANA

2:58 PM ET

June 23, 2009

I don't see why Palestinians

I don't see why Palestinians who have been absent for 60 years should not have the right to return, but descendants of Jews who have been absent for almost 2,000 years are welcomed back with open arms.

 

FULANA

2:59 PM ET

June 23, 2009

I don't see why Palestinians

I don't see why Palestinians who have been absent for 60 years should not have the right to return, but descendants of Jews who have been absent for almost 2,000 years are welcomed back with open arms.

 

CLINT

2:47 AM ET

June 23, 2009

WTF?

"Israel is doing everything possible to market itself to the world as the opposite of the settler stereotype, instead focusing on its attractive beaches, attractive Israelis (paging Bar Rafael, Sports Illustrated’s swimsuit covergirl), high tech industries, and medical innovations...."

Ha! Ja Vol!

Who cares if it has a high-tech industry? So did Nazi Germany.

Medical innovations? Ditto.

Pretty girls?!? Not as pretty as the cute blonde German Nazi-esses,......and definitely not as cute as Arab women. ;)

 

SAGREDO

5:15 AM ET

June 23, 2009

It demonstrates the strength

It demonstrates the strength of Judt's argument that Commentary is reduced to ad hominem.

 

MUHYEDIN

12:09 AM ET

June 23, 2009

Forgetting something

The multinational effort to train Palestinian security forces (under the leadership of U.S. general Keith Dayton) is a step in the right direction, but it will only succeed if viable statehood in the near future is a realistic possibility.

But these forces have only been used, or are at least widely perceived to have been only used, to crush protesters and Hamas opposition to the US-allied Fatah party. That goes against the goal of fomenting unity among Palestinians.

 

DEPETRIS@WORDPRESS.COM

12:35 AM ET

June 23, 2009

Netanyahu's Coalition Seems Too Hard-line at the Moment

The opinions and recommendations that Dr. Stephen Walt seems to endorse are certainly important if the Israeli Government and the Palestinian Authority wish to take concrete steps towards peace. In fact, the idea that Fatah's current leader, Mahmoud Abbas, is considered a pro-western Palestinian politician is a step in the right direction. For the last few years, Mr. Abbas has made a rather genuine attempt to forge a comprehensive dialogue with Jerusalem; despite the Hamas Movement's continued defiance of working with an "oppressive occupying power". Mr. Abbas' declaration that he is willing to recognize Israel's legitimacy in the heart of the Islamic world is a testament to how intimately involved he is in the whole process.

Yet, it seems like the United States (as Dr. Walt implies) is extremely hesitant to praise the Palestinian President for work on this front. The reason is quite understandable of course: any western support for Abbas would severely alter Washington's diplomatic and military relationship with Israel.

As fearful as this sounds, this may be precisely the policy change that Washington needs in order to finally advance a Middle Eastern peace deal. Sure, AIPAC and other Israeli lobby's hold considerable sway in the U.S. Congress. And yes, Israel is America's only true ally in a region that has been historically ridden with anti-western sentiment. With that being said, sacrificing U.S. national interests to keep pro-Israeli lobbyists happy baffles the mind. Israel needs the United States more than the United States needs Israel.

Perhaps it is time to cut off a portion of Washington's military ties with Israel, especially if the Jewish state is unwilling to adopt reasonable concessions towards peace. One finds it increasingly hard to believe that Prime Minister Netanyahu would continue building settlements in the West Bank with such a threat looming in the air.

I do not want to sound like a biased observer that is dead set against the state of Israel. There is no question that Israel is surrounded by hostile Arab fundamentalists (such as Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria, and Iran) who make it their main objective to destroy its very existence. Let me be absolutely clear: I am a supporter of Israel when it comes to its fight against terrorism and Islamic extremism.

Yet, at the same time, the current obstacle to the Israel-Palestine conflict is not the leadership of Mr. Abbas or his Fatah coalition (as past U.S. presidents have declared). It is Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's refusal to compromise. As long as Netanyahu and the Israeli Right continue to reject claims of an independent Palestinian state without unreasonable preconditions, President Obama might as well give up on trying to forge a peace agreement between these two longstanding rivals.

 

CLINT

12:55 AM ET

June 23, 2009

Define state

Problem is Bibi does not know the definition of "state". A disarmed state with no airspace nor waterway rights with no army, navy or air force does not a state make.

Palestine lives in a dangerous neighborhood next to a nuclear armed militant fanatical-religious occupier de facto apartheid nation and thus needs a strong air force, army and navy to survive.

 

FULANA

5:32 AM ET

June 23, 2009

Professor, as a realist,

Professor, as a realist, shouldn't you be analyzing actions to figure out a player's intent, rather than trying to convince him of what (in your opinion) is in his best interest?
As you stated,"when it comes time to make peace, it is best if one's former foe is competent, legitimate, efficient and able to live up to his commitments." If you and I know this, surely the Israelis do as well; they're not stupid. I think the conclusion that is staring us in the face is that they have no desire for peace, they want the whole enchilada and they're not going to stop 'till they get it. It's time you adjusted your sails.

 

BRETT

8:47 AM ET

June 23, 2009

"If the two-state solution

"If the two-state solution collapses, Israel will face a South African style struggle for political rights."

Maybe, but South Africa had an advantage in that the black South African population outnumbered the white South African population by a factor of seven. Short of ruling the whole thing like a colonial empire, the white South African regime was going to collapse as soon as they lost the ability to control the country by force, and the succeeding government would be dominated by black South African voters.

That's not the case in Israel and the Palestinian Territories. While Gaza continues to explode, it's also more or less cut-off and isolated. The West Bank population has a slower growth rate than Israel proper, and thousands have emigrated.

That opens up the possibility of another choice - Israel makes it so untenable for most of the Palestinian population to live in an area, resulting in emigration. It's one way to keep the Palestinian population small and poor. Moreover, if they needed to, the Israelis could always close ranks around the settlements they have, and simply abandon the West Bank like they did Gaza.

 

CLINT

10:14 AM ET

June 23, 2009

Brilliant! -- "Israel makes

Brilliant! -- "Israel makes it so untenable for most of the Palestinian population to live in an area, resulting in emigration."

How would Israel make things so "untenable" for Arabs? Maybe by bombing Gazan civilians occassionally using cluster munitions and F-16s funded by US taxpayers? Brilliant.

hmmmm:"South Africa had an advantage in that the black South African population outnumbered the white South African population by a factor of seven."

And Arabs will outnumber Jews in Israel very soon, despite concerted attempts at the importation of Jewish people into the middle east -- based solely on their religion -- from all over the Globe.

Which other country does this?

 

BRETT

7:17 PM ET

June 23, 2009

Brilliant! -- "Israel makes

Brilliant! -- "Israel makes it so untenable for most of the Palestinian population to live in an area, resulting in emigration."

The idea is that most of the Palestinian economy in the West Bank is dependent on Israel for goods and jobs. If they close off Israel from the West Bank population, tighten the screws with checkpoints, and generally impoverish the Palestinian population to a sufficient degree while allowing them to emigrate, eventually most of the population will choose to emigrate rather than starve.

And Arabs will outnumber Jews in Israel very soon, despite concerted attempts at the importation of Jewish people into the middle east -- based solely on their religion -- from all over the Globe.

On the contrary, it's unlikely that the Israeli Arab population will outnumber the Jewish population before 2050, unless you include Gaza in the figures (Gaza is undergoing a population explosion). As I mentioned, birth rates in the West Bank have dropped drastically over the decades.

 

CLINT

8:40 PM ET

June 23, 2009

1-state solution

Yes, so a one-state truly democratic) is best. I agree.

Arabs will rule that country by 2030.

(As it should be).

All non-Sephardic Jews should be expelled from the region.

 

BRETT

1:44 AM ET

June 24, 2009

All non-Sephardic Jews should

All non-Sephardic Jews should be expelled from the region.

So you want to ethnically cleanse the Israeli Jews, even though most of them have been living there their entire lives?

 

CLINT

2:50 AM ET

June 24, 2009

No, not all Israeli Jews,

No, not all Israeli Jews, just the ones who were imported into the region under racist pretenses. The rest should be resettled in the countries. Else, we can also invite back the Palestinians who lived for several generations there and all can live happily under one democratic state.

 

CLINT

2:50 AM ET

June 24, 2009

No, not all Israeli Jews,

No, not all Israeli Jews, just the ones who were imported into the region under racist pretenses. The rest should be resettled in the countries. Else, we can also invite back the Palestinians who lived for several generations there and all can live happily under one democratic state.

 

CLINT

10:25 AM ET

June 23, 2009

Settlers -- a 60 minutes video

Here is a short documentary piece from CBS' "60 minutes" on the real fanatics in the middle east -- the settlers (many of them from Brooklyn who have no God-given right to any land in the middle east and are the root of the problem):

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4752349n

 

CLINT

10:54 AM ET

June 23, 2009

2-state solution requires fixing both "states" -and fixing US FP

Yes, the 2-state solution requires fixing both "states".....but it also means fixing US F.P.

Here is what the U.S. government's Defense Science Board has to say on the situation re. US foreign policy -- section 2.3:

http://www.acq.osd.mil/dsb/reports/2004-09-Strategic_Communication.pdf

"American efforts have not only failed in this respect: they may also have achieved the opposite of what they intended.

American direct intervention in the Muslim World has paradoxically elevated the stature of and support for radical Islamists, while diminishing support for the United States to single-digits in some Arab societies.

• Muslims do not “hate our freedom,” but rather, they hate our policies. The overwhelming majority voice their objections to what they see as one-sided support in favor of Israel and against Palestinian rights, and the longstanding, even increasing support for what Muslims collectively see as tyrannies, most notably Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Pakistan, and the Gulf states.

• Thus when American public diplomacy talks about bringing democracy to Islamic societies, this is seen as no more than self-serving hypocrisy. Moreover, saying that
“freedom is the future of the Middle East” is seen as patronizing, suggesting that Arabs are like the enslaved peoples of the old Communist World — but Muslims do not feel this way: they feel oppressed, but not enslaved.

• Furthermore, in the eyes of Muslims, American occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq has not led to democracy there, but only more chaos and suffering. U.S. actions appear in contrast to be motivated by ulterior motives, and deliberately controlled in order to best serve American national interests at the expense of truly Muslim selfdetermination.

• Therefore, the dramatic narrative since 9/11 has essentially borne out the entire radical Islamist bill of particulars. American actions and the flow of events have
elevated the authority of the Jihadi insurgents and tended to ratify their legitimacy among Muslims. Fighting groups portray themselves as the true defenders of an Ummah (the entire Muslim community) invaded and under attack — to broad public support.

• What was a marginal network is now an Ummah-wide movement of fighting groups. Not only has there been a proliferation of “terrorist” groups: the unifying context of a shared cause creates a sense of affiliation across the many cultural and sectarian boundaries that divide Islam."

 

KEYRAN

11:27 AM ET

June 23, 2009

All interesting but...

Walt as usual simplifies clearly and vividly, but I would urge not spending too much time on the second point.

To use Josephus' title, all the wars are Jewish Wars and all the misery comes back to the amazing unity among Jews that the Will to Power is the only thing. If there is ever to be a solution, it has to be from the Jews... willingly. The divisions among the Palestinians and their poverty of administration are programmed by Israel. It is just another excuse in the endless reams of propaganda that are turned out every minute of every day by a people who apparently have come to believe that the kidnapping of a soldier equals a second holocaust.
When I was in Israel in 2008 I spend almost all my time with the university age students who thought I must be Jewish because I liked them so much--while loathing their leaders.

In any case, I concluded that these kids are raised to fear and hate the Palestinians because they are filled with the delusions that they could be driven into the sea!
I asked,"Could Mexico push the USA into the Atlantic?"

The truth is that the War Party has conditioned everyone to believe that the killing of the 410 children in Gaza was necessary for survival!

The central task of George Mitchell is to sweep back the ocean of self-congratulating delusions in the heads of the Jews. He needs to do this because there are no checks and balances for them.

As far as I can see, the only possibility is for many Jewish organizations like Brit Shalom to give the Catholic Church, for instance, the courage to stop sucking up to the War Party. It could be a countervailing voice in the propaganda wars.

Curiously, the Jews individually and collectivity have never had such power in modern history, but apparently it works like cocaine. The only argument I can give that seems to get through the seven layers of repression is that their children are living in a never-never-land of expecting that threatening solves all problems. I point out also how shameful it is for the soldiers to fight children with bombs and shells--and to leave all the risking and dying for the Americans, who are fighting the Jewish Wars.

All this abuse of power and no recognition as a nation or a people.... except after another endless juvenile display of tantrums and chronic self-pity.

In other words, the chances of the Jews choosing the liberty of their children is very small as long as Adult Teenagers rule Jerusalem and Washington.

All efforts must be focused on the Jews and very little on Palestinians.

 

DAVID IN DC

12:06 PM ET

June 23, 2009

It follows that if Israel

It follows that if Israel wants a durable peace, it has an interest in doing everything it can to strengthen Palestinian leaders. As Barack Obama clearly understands, halting settlement expansion and removing the hundreds of checkpoints that are strangling Palestinian daily life would be an important step in both symbolic and practical terms.

Most importantly, the whole strengthen the moderate Palestinians thing has been tried multiple times before. It hasn't worked so far and the state of the Palestinian leadership leaves a situation where it looks even less likely to work now. Furthermore, this is coupled with more serious ramifications for Israel if it backfires this time (like Hamas staging another coup, in the West Bank this time).

“The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.”

Given the above I would call Walt an optimist. Definitely not a realist. There is no reason to think the same thing tried over again will work this time.

Furthermore, Israel already made this type of important symbolic and practical concession in Gaza. What followed was clarifying:

1) The Walts of the world give them no credit, while banging the drum for more unilateral concessions and blaming Israel for what happened in the aftermath.

2) The Palestinians don't get busy creating a state, but rather put all of their efforts towards attacking and antogonizing their neighbors.

Given the various forces that have worked to keep the Palestinians weak and divided, it would be shocking if their leadership were not problematic.

Predictable and very typical. Palestinians are never really responsible for their own disfunction, you see. To the Walts of the world, they are never really responsible for anything.

 

CLINT

12:50 PM ET

June 23, 2009

wrong

"Most importantly, the whole strengthen the moderate Palestinians thing has been tried multiple times before."

Yeah -- like when, at US instigation, the Palestinians voted -- and they voted in Hamas -- then their vote was annulled by US-Israel. The whole strengthening-the-Palestinians thing has indeed been tried, and when it does not yield the results that US and Israel want, then the plug is pulled.

When Palestinians have a real sovereign state, with their own army, air force and navy we can talk.

What the Israelis want is a Israeli state plus a Palestinian ghetto for the Arab "cockroaches". That the Israelis are blind to their racist-fascism would be amusing if it were not so dangerous (to themselves, the middle east, the US and the world).

 

CLINT

12:51 PM ET

June 23, 2009

Please -- ask the Israelis to define "STATE"

Problem is Bibi does not know the definition of "state". A disarmed state with no airspace nor waterway rights with no army, navy or air force does not a state make.

Palestine lives in a dangerous neighborhood next to a nuclear armed militant fanatical-religious occupier de facto apartheid nation and thus needs a strong air force, army and navy to survive.

 

MADRID

1:32 PM ET

June 23, 2009

Are you related in any way to Brett Stephens of the WSJ?

Are you in any way related to Brett Stephens of the WSJ editorial page? The arguments you put out here sound just like his.

 

NUR AL-CUBICLE

7:25 PM ET

June 23, 2009

The "able to live up to its commitments" part

Of course you are absolutely correct, Prof. Walt. Yet Israel's policy is to delegitimize any and all credible Palestinian leadership (thinking of the disgraceful isolation of Arafat, who certainly had the credentials to deliver, in Ramallah.)

 

CLINT

8:41 PM ET

June 23, 2009

1-state plus one ghetto solution

Israel is not interested in a 2-state solution.

They want one state and one Palestinian Ghetto. (i.e. the status quo)

 

AUGUST WEST

9:44 PM ET

June 23, 2009

Israeli Foreign Ministry Legal Counsel: colonies illegal

Theodor Meron, then chief legal counsel at the Israeli Foreign Ministry, warned then-PM Eshkol in 1967 that colonies would be illegal. See "Israel's Tragedy Foretold" by Gershon Gorenberg (NY Times, March 10, 2006) (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/10/opinion/10gorenberg.html?scp=1&sq=israel%27s%20tragedy%20foretold%20gorenberg&st=cse)

Here's an excerpt:

"In early September 1967, Prime Minister Levi Eshkol was considering granting the first approval for settlements in the West Bank and Golan Heights, conquered three months earlier in the Six-Day War. An Arab summit meeting in Khartoum had rejected peacemaking. The prime minister believed that the Golan and the strip of land along the Jordan River would make Israel more defensible. He also wanted to re-establish the kibbutz of Kfar Etzion near Bethlehem, which had been lost in Israel's 1948 war of independence.

"The legal counsel of the Foreign Ministry, Theodor Meron, was asked whether international law allowed settlement in the newly conquered land. In a memo marked ''Top Secret,'' Mr. Meron wrote unequivocally, ''My conclusion is that civilian settlement in the administered territories contravenes the explicit provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention.''

"In the detailed opinion that accompanied that note, Mr. Meron explained that the Convention -- to which Israel was a signatory -- forbade an occupying power from moving part of its population to occupied territory. The Golan, taken from Syria, was ''undoubtedly 'occupied territory,' '' he wrote.

"Mr. Meron took note of Israel's diplomatic argument that the West Bank was not ''normal'' occupied territory, because the land's status was uncertain. The prewar border with Jordan had been a mere armistice line, and Jordan had annexed the West Bank unilaterally.

"But he rejected that argument for two reasons. The first was diplomatic: the international community would not accept it and would regard settlement as showing ''intent to annex the West Bank to Israel.'' The second was legal, he wrote: ''In truth, certain Israeli actions are inconsistent with the claim that the West Bank is not occupied territory.'' For instance, he noted, a military decree issued on the third day of the war in June said that military courts must apply the Geneva Conventions in the West Bank."

 

STERNLIGHT

8:08 PM ET

June 24, 2009

Cutting through

Let's cut through all the anti-semitic, neo nazi, apologist nonsense.

1. Israel IS the Jewish state. It is a UN member state, recognized by most of the world, despite some disagreements about embassies in Jerusalem. There is a previous history of sovereignty, though ancient.

2. There is no "Palestinian State" except for Jordan. No UN membership; no legal status, no previous history of sovereignty.

The notion of apartheid is nonsense; Arabs in Israel are citizens, have a substantial voting bloc in the parliament, and Israeli courts have often ruled in their favor and against the government.. Those Arabs in occupied territories aren't part of Israel, and have no statehood rights to Israel, and thus cannot be said to be anything more than an occupied neighboring population who made and continues to make war on Israel. Might as well say the US is an apartheid nation because we don't permit unlimited immigration of Mexicans or Canadians and close our border checkpoints. Might as well say that Saudi Arabia is....wait; it is, as are most "Islamic" countries.

As to the demographic argument, recent data shows that the much-touted coming Arab majority isn't going to happen.

As long as the "Palestinians" refuse to accept Israel as a Jewish state as it was so constituted by the UN and most countries who recognized it, and instead live in a world of denial, virulent anti-semitism, rationalizations, obfuscations, and terrorist attacks against civilians as policy, while dreaming of conquest, there can be no peace and no second Palestinian State.

All the rest is diversionary chin music.

 

CLINT

9:19 PM ET

June 24, 2009

Israeli "state" was created thru terrorism

and so will Palestine.

over and out,
Clint

 

STERNLIGHT

8:28 PM ET

June 24, 2009

Opium dreams

The Saudi Peace Plan is no peace plan at all, because they have repeatedly said it is "non-negotiable", and it calls for the demographic destruction of Israel as a Jewish State through the so-called "right of return" of the DESCENDANTS of the original Palestinian refugees; most of the legitimate original refugees are dead or very old. Soon there will be NO Palestinian refugees, as binding International law has defined refugees. Confidence tricks and non-binding resolutions at the UN don't count.

We will know the Arabs are serious only when their "peace plan" accepts the existence of Israel as it is, a legally constituted Jewish State, with any refugee compensation being balanced out against compensation owed Jewish refugees expelled from Arab countries, and with resettlement by UNHCR of refugees only in countries and amounts willing to take them.

As usual with Arab fabulists, they seem to forget that the Israelis fought defensive wars and won each time. It is the victors who get to impose terms, not the vanquished. All the rest is a negotiation.

 

STERNLIGHT

11:58 PM ET

June 24, 2009

What has Israel done for us lately (one of a series)?

Where is the US National Interest?

The Israeli pharmaceutical industry is in fine shape. Exports of generic drugs were worth an estimated $1.1 billion for the first trimester of 2009. (Guysen.International.News)
A high level official at Teva, Haim Horowitz, reported that overall Israeli drug exports rose 23% for the first third of 2009 over same period 2008.

And what have the Palestinians done for the world except cause trouble and commit murder?

 

CLINT

4:30 AM ET

June 25, 2009

Nazis had a great High Tech industry also

Nazis had a great High Tech industry also.

Is there a point to your drivel?

Palestinians commit murder like the Americans committed murder against the British oppressors.

Hamas are freedom fighters.

 

CLINT

5:38 PM ET

June 25, 2009

"And what have the

"And what have the Palestinians done for the world except cause trouble and commit murder?"

The have encouraged emigration from Israel and discouraged (illegal) immigration to Israel through freedom fighting -- this is laudable accomplishment.

 

Stephen M. Walt is the Robert and Renée Belfer professor of international relations at Harvard University.

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