Posted By Stephen M. Walt Share

I'm no expert on health care, so I don't have strong views on how to reform the current U.S. system. But watching the lies, chicanery, and sheer wing-nuttery of the "debate" on health care reform (along with the birther controversy, the revelations about "The Family," and various other manifestations of what Richard Hofstader called the "paranoid style" of American politics) led me to wonder about possible foreign policy implications.

Here's my question: What impression do people in other countries get when they observe the divorced-from-reality nature of contemporary American political discourse? American pundits like to talk about how "irrational" our adversaries are (usually when they are trying to scare us into spending more on weapons or launching preventive wars), but do they ever stop to think about how goofy and irrational we appear to be to others? And I don't just mean the buffoons on talk radio and Fox News; I'm talking about Senators, Congresspersons, and other prominent politicos. When I see some of these folks in action, even a realist like me begins to question the validity of the "rational actor" assumption.

The United States doesn't have a monopoly on extremist politicians, of course, but it is a lot more powerful. No wonder unpolarity makes even our allies nervous.

 
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RANDOMVARIABLE

4:47 PM ET

August 14, 2009

There goes the special relationship

I would imagine a British government would have less trust in a Republican administration given the unprecedented attacks on the British healthcare system, and comparisons to Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union.

 

ZJIN

5:39 PM ET

August 14, 2009

I would not worry that much

I would not worry that much if I were you. Other countries already learned to live with a powerful and sometimes irrational (to them) US.

 

M. N. SILVA

7:29 PM ET

August 14, 2009

More importantly ...

Doesn't America's perceived irrationality and it being perceived as a messianic power, also determines its friendships?

Doesn't it take other universalists to be friends with one?

== http://westphalianpost.wordpress.com ==

 

AGD

9:19 PM ET

August 14, 2009

Pretty Irrational...

Well, during the Bush years I pretty much saw the US as a little kid holding a very large magnifying glass (we foreign nations being the ants). So yeah, the US seemed pretty irrational at the time. Luckily that is starting to change a little bit under Obama, at least in terms of foreign-policy.

Although, while nowadays we may not have Bush, it is just as fun to watch Fox News and listen to them say how the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child will most likely end up with the UN prohibiting parents from spanking their childs in the US. I mean, come on... I dont see a debacle in my country right now and we've ratified it! and please, the US can disobey the UN when it comes to invading a sovereign nation, yet it can't disobey it when it comes to child spanking?? Sean Hannity and his bunch are just so funny to watch...

Yet, I must admit, that us third worlders can be just as irrational sometimes (or even more irrational) than the US has been (I mean just watch Venezuela and Bolivia).

 

BRETT

4:03 AM ET

August 15, 2009

What impression do people in

What impression do people in other countries get when they observe the divorced-from-reality nature of contemporary American political discourse?

How much of it do they actually see on a regular basis? The impression I get, at least from reading British newspapers for example, is that it's usually only some major political things in the US that get serious media coverage over there, like the election last year, or the major digs at the NHS. Otherwise, it's mostly minor stuff unless it specifically talks about something that affects that country.

And I don't just mean the buffoons on talk radio and Fox News; I'm talking about Senators, Congresspersons, and other prominent politicos. When I see some of these folks in action, even a realist like me begins to question the validity of the "rational actor" assumption.

I remember a Canadian on a forum I browse saying that one of the things that bothered him about American politicians was how they would make speeches that touched on other countries in the US, and speeches saying different things when they were out of country, as if non-Americans had no chance of picking up the contradiction.

 

KENNETH SORENSEN

9:06 AM ET

August 15, 2009

Postulate: Jews are generally against enhanced role for thestate

What is interesting about studying one Jewish community in one part of the world [My field-study was conducted in Denmark], is that essentially the same core beliefs are shared in similar communities all over the world. The Jews have throughout history been good at helping themselves through social networks and charities - this was before any state-schemes were in place anywhere, and they were often harassed and if they didn't help themselves, nobody would. This is so engrained in them, so they usually are opposed to big state-schemes [and actually the opposition to state-schemes is - on the face of it - quite sound and make good economic sense for those who are unaware that Britain,France and Denmark can do state-schemes for less than 10 % of GDP (Denmark 6 %), while the US spends 15-16 %.], and it is my postulate, that such schemes runs contrary to Jewish ethics.

High degree of sophistication in equipment - for the wealthy

That is why I fathom that Jews in the United States mostly are opposed to an enhanced state-role in health-care. They are, viewed collectively, above average in income, and it is undeniable that the present scheme favours various high-tech solutions that benefits the wealthy and that simply will not be available to all in a state-scheme) The Jews have been very succesfull in business in the Unites States - the archtypical capitalistic system. And given that many of them naturally have been attracted to any business that generates money, it is my estimate that many of them are in pharmaceutical industries or in insurance businesses that thrives on the existing non-state way of doing health-business in The Unites States.

And seeing that change is underway, they very likely mobilise some of their considerable political clout, but are careful to disguise any direct link, and instead let various noisy figures, like the ones Walt mentions, do the dirty business of defending the present scheme.

 

DAN NEXON

10:57 PM ET

August 15, 2009

Don't let facts get in the way...

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_10910405
http://www.njdc.org/blog/post/Obama83ofJewishVote042609

American Jews are one of the most reliable Democratic voting blocks and one of the most "progressive" ethnic groups in the United States.

 

SICULO ARABI

1:06 AM ET

August 18, 2009

 

FNORD

7:54 PM ET

August 15, 2009

To Brett

We see a lot of it. Glenn Becks message about Obama having a deep hatred for white people reached all major norwegian newspapers. All the major papers have covered the Town Hells, as well as TV.

Over here, Glenn Beck would have been fired in ten seconds flat. Thats the main difference, Fox is more similar to various extreme-right blogs in its rhewtoric than it is a actual television channel.

 

BRETT

8:25 PM ET

August 15, 2009

Really? I stand corrected,

Really? I stand corrected, then.

 

AGD

10:14 PM ET

August 16, 2009

Me too

I live in Peru and also get full access to Glenn Beck, Hannity, O'Reilly, Dobbs, etc. It's not that much on the papers or local news channels, but I do have direct access to FoxNews through Cable (and Youtube). And we too would have fired Beck in a heartbeat for half the things he says.

In fact I get to watch both rightwing extremists at FoxNews and leftist extremists at TVSur (Chavez's news channel) through cable here. Its actually fun to notice how untrue it is when Beck says Obama is an extremist leftist haha.

 

FORMER GRAD

8:26 PM ET

August 15, 2009

Most of the times, I agree

Most of the times, I agree with this blog. But this time I don't. The fact that something looks paranoid or irrational to us does not make it subjectively so, and I am not making constructivist propaganda. I am just saying that when actors, and especially groups, rely on messages, languages and symbols that look completely absurd to us, then it is very likely that they are rationally pursuing some goals.

What is rational, that some extremist religion groups support pro-choise policies, secularism and pluralism?

 

OMBRAGEUX

9:29 PM ET

August 15, 2009

The image of a self-righteous

The image of a self-righteous crusading and ignorant America, a kind of murderous Don Quixote, has been around for a while. It waxes and wanes, but I would trace the most recent image back to Ronald Reagan, when the U.S. National Security elite became apparently convinced that they would destroy the schemes of Moscow through laser weapons and promoting civil wars in irrelevant peasant countries in Latin America and Africa. Bush, and the Conservative movement, have been channeling that particular "Reagan" ever since (not the 2nd term Reagan of conciliation and negotiation, mind you).

To Europeans, those are the only I can spoke for, it leads us to be rather bemused. There's nothing Europeans can do about it. If the Americans want to launch some military adventure or ambitious project somewhere, basically screwing around in the Third World, then that's what they're going to do. They'll even get our own governments to go along, at least symbolically, despite massive public opposition (the case of Spain, Italy and the U.K. regarding Iraq). It is hard to exactly be 'afraid'. The Americans are the 'least immoral' of the hegemons we've known and its quite clear their heady messianism won't lead to anywhere but their own financial and human catastrophe and a few destroyed Third World countries. One can feel for the tragedy for the Third World hapless victims of American adventurism, but we don't fear it ourselves.

As to the future, no one can say. I can say categorically that, on this side of the pond, Republican politics with their McCarthyism, Red Scaremongering, market fundamentalism, creationism, Christian fundamentalism, "Lewinski-gate", birtherism and so forth, are basically considered insane.

Obama elicited a lot of enthusiasm and 'hope' etc. But I did read one French defense blog that speculated that the United States - with the costs of over-dependence on oil, trapped by militarism and oil in the Middle East, its consumerism and debt, its collapsing infrastructure, its massive prison-industrial complex, its inefficient healthcare system and its political system characterized by both permanent sensational elections and permanent political sclerosis - was at a kind of 'tipping point' where its power abroad, apparently at its zenith, could no longer mask the unsustainable costs of its empire and decades-long internal dysfunctions and inefficiencies. In short, that the U.S. was in a situation not unlike that of the Soviet Union in the 1980s. This blogger then speculated that Obama, in attempting to reform the system into something sustainable, might actually destroy it.

I don't subscribe to this view, but Americans should certainly stop letting their pre-eminence in the world, chiefly the product of being the only developed country with 300,000,000 citizens, blind them to the severe dysfunctions in their society.

 

ANGRYBRIT

12:28 PM ET

August 16, 2009

Big business is panicking

I've been watching the debates on and off and the whole time I may have completely missed the point as I don't know all the ins and outs of the proposed plan but I can't help but conclude that big insurers are running scared at the prospect of competing with a public health care provider.

Right now I'm watching Obama's interview on ABC (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=7922187&page=1). At 06:16 Ron Williams, CEO of Aetna, suggests that it would be difficult for insurers to compete with a government subsidised health plan when the government is also "refereeing the game." Williams also suggests that it would be better for insurers to identify the problems the government is trying to solve and to work, collaboratively, with hospitals and health care professionals to solve those problems - as opposed to introducing a new competitor (the government) in to the market who has the rule-making ability the government would have.

We've had public health care in the UK for decades now - the NHS. Though it's not perfect, it provides free health care to all. We also have private health care providers, such as BUPA, who market a superior product than that of the NHS, running their own private hospitals with private health care professionals.

So, like I said, it seems to me that insurers in the US are worried about profits. Reformed health care will most likely dent their wallets, but surely health care for all - including the poorest - is more important than profits. The insurers will need to make their products equally or more attractive than the government's in order to compete.

 

KENNETH SORENSEN

3:10 PM ET

August 16, 2009

Here is why free healthcare for all is important

The BBC has learned that the Swine flu virus, that emerged in Mexico recently, is 75 pct. identical to the virus which swept from a sow-operation in North Carolina and through pig herds all over America in 1998-99. That infection was a critical event, says one of Britain’s top experts, Dr Ian Brown, of the Government’s Veterinary Laboratory Agency.

This has reinforced suspicions in some quarters that
intensive pig farming could be increasing the risk of transmission to humans. The role of all livestock in industrial farm units also came under scrutiny in a national study published in April last year. The report, by an expert commission, took two and a half years to complete
and was funded by the Pew Charitable Trusts, a non-profit group. The inquiry team included farming and veterinary experts and a former US Agriculture Secretary. They raised the issue of how viruses and pathogens could be spread.

Listen to the programme File on 4 - Swine Flu (38 mins):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00ktc9y/File_on_4_09_06_2009/

BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION, RADIO 4
TRANSCRIPT OF “FILE ON 4” – “SWINE FLU”

Dr Jean Handy, Associate Professor of Microbiology at the University of North Carolina: The pig represents something referred to as a mixing vessel that provides an opportunity for influenza isolates that came from birds to mix and re-assort their genes with those of pig origin and those of human origin. Pigs and humans, both being mammals, can pass their strains of influenza back and forth between humans and pigs fairly readily, fairly easily. Infection of a pig provides an opportunity for those viruses to come up with a combination that is particularly lethal in the human population.

The Executive Director of the Pew Commission, Bob
Martin
: The added problem is that many of the industrial farm operation workers are lower income scale in the United States. They don’t have access to immediate health care or screening, and that they would be what we termed a bridging population to bring the virus from the industrial farm out to the broader population.

 

ANON_ANON

3:42 AM ET

August 17, 2009

Mr Sorenson...

Dr. Nexon is right: you really should put facts before conjecture. Know something about the Jewish community in the US before speculating about it.

 

BLUE13326

3:27 PM ET

August 17, 2009

Angry people speaking up to

Angry people speaking up to their elected officials? How many countries allow such things without the government calling out the cops or army to beat them? How did it play when the left had their Bush = Hitler demos?

Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with their politics (and you obviously disagree), a people with the rights and courage to speak what they see as truth to the powerful is something we should never be ashamed of.

 

MARK AND OTIS

4:14 PM ET

August 17, 2009

blue: Thats not what this is about.

When the “truth” that people are speaking to power is irrational and based on partisan hatred instead of evidence – that is something you should be ashamed of.

There are plenty of countries in the world that have vibrant democracies without the irrational screaming matches that the “Town Halls” have become. As Prof. Walt points out: The problem for the US right now is that these countries are witnessing the depths of the crazy and it’s damaging to the American image abroad.

 

BLUE13326

4:42 PM ET

August 17, 2009

Like who?

Like who?

 

MARK AND OTIS

5:47 PM ET

August 17, 2009

Seriously?

You are seriously asking me to name a democracy that manages to avoid routine screaming matches at "town halls"? A democracy that would avoid lunatic conspircy theorists like the Birthers from garnering mainstream attention?

How about most of Europe. Or lets say Canada - whats the equivalent to the Birthers in Canada?

 

BLUE13326

6:13 PM ET

August 17, 2009

That's too easy...the polls

That's too easy...the polls all indicate about one-third of Canadians and significantly more in Europe believe in various 9/11 conspiracy theories; such as al-Queda wasn't really behind the attack or Bush let it happen. That's far bigger than any 'birther' movement here.

Which is more irrational? Believing Bush was behind 9/11 or believing Obama, whose family just happened to be in Kenya (where his father lived) around the time of his birth, was actually born there (and no, I'm not a birther, I'm just comparing the respective rationalities)?

And I'd hardly consider Europe vibrant democracies. When they're allowed to vote, such as when they reject the EU, their elites just make them vote over again until they get the 'right' result

 

MARK AND OTIS

6:13 PM ET

August 17, 2009

right. 9/11.

the usual 9/11 conspiracy nonsense. the "about one-third of Canadians" is roughly the same number as those found in similar polls in the US.

do you have anything better than that?

 

BLUE13326

6:34 PM ET

August 17, 2009

Why? You've just conceded the

Why? You've just conceded the point to me, and agreed that I was right and you're wrong. Read your post above.

This is what you asked of me:

A democracy that would avoid lunatic conspircy theorists like the Birthers from garnering mainstream attention?

How about most of Europe. Or lets say Canada - whats the equivalent to the Birthers in Canada?

I've given you an equivalent conspiracy theory that exists in Canada. It's an irrelevant strawman that one exists in the US, as well.

Or don't they do logic in Canada?

And as an addendum, let me just add, you really don't have to scratch the surface to find others, especially in Europe, some of which might be quite familiar to people here ( Jews control the world), that have had rather worse consequences than the Birthers.

 

MARK AND OTIS

6:35 PM ET

August 17, 2009

actually we do it quite well

This is hardly a good comparison.

Name me the Canadian television host who has taken up the 9/11 Truther conspiracy and given it a mainstream voice to millions as the Lou Dobbs and Glenn Becks have done with the Birthers? (Or if you insist on this ridiculous comparison, enlighten me with the mainstream AMERICAN defender of the Truthers).

Again, I'll reiterate the point of Walt's post: is the "sheer right-wing nuttery" and the platform they've been accorded damaging the American image abroad?

 

BLUE13326

6:57 PM ET

August 17, 2009

Prof. Drezner posted on the

Prof. Drezner posted on the propensity of European (and other) IR students to be conspiracy-mongers on his blog here from his recent stint teaching there:

http://drezner.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/07/13/deflating_the_power_bubble

As for your question, logically you can't argue from anecdotes, it's really the polls on which the point will succeed or fail, and more Canadians are 9/11 conspiracy theorists that Americans are birthers; and I have no idea if any Canadian media figures are birthers, or not. But again, you're just throwing up another irrelevant strawman.

I already answered your last question, but I'll reiterate: How you view these protests depends largely on your ideology. Many, perhaps most, I don't know, Americans do not view these protests the way you do (just like many Americans didn't view the 'We are all Hezbullah' protests in the UK the way they did there). If you view these people as the 2nd coming of the Nazis then you will obviously like us less. I do not think they are, so they do not concern me; nor am I concerned over your misconceptions of them.

 

MARK AND OTIS

6:59 PM ET

August 17, 2009

you're missing my point

Again, I'm not suggesting that the US holds the monopoly on conspiracy theories.

Although they're a lot closer than you let on, I'm not suggesting that you should compare the number of Canadian Truthers to American Birthers (I had suggested Truther to Truther... and Truthers in either country on mainstream media... but this is also besides the point).

The point is that the Birther movement - and the other "right-wing nuttery" Walt lists are accorded mainstream media attention. THAT is the question!

 

MARK AND OTIS

4:06 PM ET

August 17, 2009

Canadians are Dumbfounded

Canadians - like the British - are absolutely dumbfounded by Republican vilification of our health care systems. Health care systems so beloved that they’re political taboos even for the right of center parties (one of which is now in power here).

And don’t forget that the internet has made the accessibility of video – videos of your town halls, commentary news shows, and partisan commercials – allow the world to get a good glimpse at the depth of the ignorance. As Prof. Walt notes, there are irrational political agents in every country, but in the developed world few countries promote the voices of those who fabricate outright lies for irrational, partisan gain as much as the United States.

 

BLUE13326

4:56 PM ET

August 17, 2009

So we were rational and good when we followed Canada's

So we were rational and good when we followed Canda's stupidity and adopted price controls in the 70s, right? That worked out great, didn't it? Speaking of the internet, it looks like there are some major changes in store for Canada's health care system; this is headlined now on Drudge:

The incoming president of the Canadian Medical Association says this country's health-care system is sick and doctors need to develop a plan to cure it.

Dr. Anne Doig says patients are getting less than optimal care and she adds that physicians from across the country - who will gather in Saskatoon on Sunday for their annual meeting - recognize that changes must be made.

"We all agree that the system is imploding, we all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians realize," Doing said in an interview with The Canadian Press...

"(Canadians) have to understand that the system that we have right now - if it keeps on going without change - is not sustainable," said Doig.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jbjzPEY0Y3bvRD335rGu_Z3KXoQw

 

WADOSY

5:50 PM ET

August 17, 2009

it would be a tragedy if americans had to choose...

...between defending the empire, bailing out looters, and paying for boomers dying in comfort.

best for boomers to buy a pistol, or accumulate a lethal dose of some comfortable drug, just in case.

in the good old days, you youngsters could have thrown granny off the sled to sidetrack the wolves, or maybe granny would even have had enough sense to crawl off into the winter and freeze herself to death voluntarily.

*sigh*

 

WADOSY

5:53 PM ET

August 17, 2009

yeah, i know that old boomers are alreadly covered...

...but it's just a matter of time before americans are gonna have to make some hard choices.

and defending the empire might be pretty low on the totem pole.

 

WADOSY

5:56 PM ET

August 17, 2009

bailing out the looters...

...might be even lower.

 

MARK AND OTIS

5:56 PM ET

August 17, 2009

Again, you miss the point.

The point isn't that Canadian healthcare is better than American healthcare (even if I do believe it) or that the Canadian or British systems are perfect.

The argument is that the tone and tenor - of the healthcare debate FOR INSTANCE - is damaging to the American image abroad.

My point - and I'm sure you'll dismiss it - is that the Republican appropriation of the Canadian or British HC systems isn’t described as one of nuanced policy disagreements. They are presented as Orwellian nightmares where medical decisions are made by bureaucrats. This is laughable disinformation that Canadians and Britons consider ignorant (as per Walt’s argument).

(By the way, quoting the head of the CMA isn’t exactly an objective source. The CMA, like the American Medical Association, is a professional body whose interests lie with Doctors, not the population as a whole).

 

WADOSY

6:13 PM ET

August 17, 2009

it's a defective sperm

Dr Doig's got a pedigree when it comes to medical politics: her father was among the physicians who opposed NDP premier Tommy Douglas's creation of medicare in 1962

tapdances by doig

 

BLUE13326

6:14 PM ET

August 17, 2009

And Europeans and Canadians

And Europeans and Canadians don't do the same? American-style capitalism isn't a curse in large parts of Europe?

Again, it all depends on your ideology.

You all didn't mind it much when our left was having irrational bouts of Bush = Hitler rallies.

And you all sure didn't seem to worry about how we'd take it when Europe and Canadians regularly compared Bush to Hitler. Didn't some Canadian make a movie fantasizing about Bush getting shot and killed? So, does this whole worrying about appearances thing work only one way?

And yes, I would trust a doctor's opinion on health care over a bureaucrat's; maybe that's the difference between how Canadians and Americans view the issue?

 

MARK AND OTIS

6:17 PM ET

August 17, 2009

actually we dont care at all.

I don't care if Orly Taitz rants like a lunatic on Fox News over whether Obama is an American or in Salon over whether he's responsible for murdering his gay lovers. I don't care if leftists, on the other hand, compare Bush to Hitler.

The question Walt asked was should YOU care.

 

BLUE13326

6:27 PM ET

August 17, 2009

I thought I rather clearly

I thought I rather clearly answered that question.

Do we have to go back to how Europeans viewed Reagan to understand what's really important?

 

WADOSY

6:33 PM ET

August 17, 2009

what if obama has discovered an issue...

...that will force americans to choose between israel's wellbeing and their own wellbeing?

that's what scares you, isnt it?

 

MARK AND OTIS

6:41 PM ET

August 17, 2009

no no blue, you answered my (and Walt's) question.

It's pretty clear that you don't care about "Who is rational?"

Thats the beauty of your democracy - you and your fact verse friends can continue to express your opinions!

 

WADOSY

6:26 PM ET

August 17, 2009

appearances...

does this whole worrying about appearances thing work only one way?

.

...and facts: some americans wanted a new pearl harbor, then they got installed into positions from which they could make their new pearl harbor happen, and then their new pearl harbor happened.

then, when the iraq war didnt produce the oil it was supposed to ---because the idiotic salesmen had it all wrong--- it became necessary to crash the economy to disguise the fact that oil production had peaked.

now that everybody's reverted to default mode ---looting--- and the govt seems to be committed to spending trillions to protect the looters, and the wars are costing trillions, what the hell does obama think he's doing by promoting govt health care?

 

WADOSY

6:26 PM ET

August 17, 2009

 

WADOSY

3:12 AM ET

August 19, 2009

rationality is

slip slidin' away

.

Orly Taitz: Obama policies are 'clear and present danger to Israel'

The driving force behind the 'birther' movement has found her star is rising in Israel.

haaretz

.
"orly taitz" "queen esther"

"sarah palin" "queen esther"

"monica lewinsky" "queen esther"

 

COURTNEYME109

12:41 PM ET

August 18, 2009

Trick Question!

Actually, illegit, intolerant regimes, militias, facebook and girl fearing creepy, corrupt royalty in Ray Bans, Supreme Leaders and Presidents for Life should worry about how goofy and irrational they appear to us.

 

Stephen M. Walt is the Robert and Renée Belfer professor of international relations at Harvard University.

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