Netanyahu throws down the gauntlet

Posted By Stephen M. Walt Share

In an obvious gesture of defiance, the Netanyahu government in Israel intends to approve the construction of hundreds of additional housing units in West Bank settlements. All such settlements, it is worth noting, are considered by most of the world -- including some past U.S. administrations -- to be illegal under international law.

In response, the Obama administration said, "We regret the reports of Israel's plans to approve additional settlement construction," adding that additional settlements are "inconsistent with Israel's commitments under the road map."

Ouch. That must really sting. The government of the world's most powerful country "regrets" what you are doing. Oh dear. I'll bet there's fear and trembling in PM Netanyahu's office tonight.

The administration's official statement also declared "The U.S. commitment to Israel's security is and will remain unshakeable," and said that it still believed a two-state solution was the best way to guarantee that objective.

But here's my question: If Netanyahu and Co. can count on this "unshakeable commitment" no matter what they do, why should anyone expect their behavior to change?

Henning Schacht-Pool/Getty Images

 
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EHRENS

9:54 PM ET

September 4, 2009

Question for Steven Walt

How likely is it that the US could slap Israel with sanctions, cut off funding, block participation in joint energy or defense programs, or slap it with outright sanctions?

And why has the US done nothing about the visa issue?

 

MUHYEDIN

10:47 PM ET

September 4, 2009

What next?

In light of the absence of even threatening language (let alone actions) coming from Team Obama, do you see any hope/change ahead in how the Administration would deal with Israeli intransigence?

What next, wait? If the Team is so spineless/castrated already, then the waiting has to be till they (maybe) win a second term and (maybe) do the right thing. That's four years from now, and a lot of hoping.

It's a tried and true failure of politics.

Meanwhile, there are civilians like Code Pink members and others, who are actually doing something, by organizing a march on Gaza (see www.gazafreedommarch.org) to help at least end the siege.

 

BRETT

10:29 AM ET

September 5, 2009

In an obvious gesture of

In an obvious gesture of defiance, the Netanyahu government in Israel intends to approve the construction of hundreds of additional housing units in West Bank settlements. All such settlements, it is worth noting, are considered by most of the world -- including some past U.S. administrations -- to be illegal under international law.

Guess he doesn't give a shit about the supposed negotiations that are going on with Abbas and the PA.

In the meantime, we'll have to wait and see what the US does. Doing something similar to what the US is doing unjustly to Honduras - cutting off some aid - would be a nice start.

 

RAYMOND TURNEY

3:29 AM ET

September 5, 2009

Probably no change

Hi,

The Obama administration seems to be mostly centrist, believing that current US policies, and the US system, are basically right.

So they probably won't do anything to separate the US from Israel. The number of strongly pro-Israel voters and political campaign contributors is rather small, but they are a lot more numerous and committed than the people who favor a change in the direction of not backing Israel.

When you add in the fact that the Obama administration is currently having a very hard time just reforming the obviously broken US health care financing system, it doesn't seem likely that they will add a fight with the Israeli administration to the large supply of other fights it is already involved in.

Note that I am not saying that the Obama administration cannot change US policy, but it seems unlikely to me that they are looking for more enemies at this time.

The US may be drifting into a situation where it is very powerful, but its political system cannot adapt to changing reality. Of course, I always liked Paul Kennedy's comparison of the US to Spain in the sixteenth century. Others do not agree.

Ray,

 

NUR AL-CUBICLE

7:32 PM ET

September 5, 2009

What Sarkozy says:

"I would like to say a few words on the Middle East....Everyone knows perfectly well what must be done to achieve peace and how to implement it. We can no longer wait, for if we do, there will be more death and suffering. And we have waited long enough. Everyone knows that I am a friend of Israel and I shall be direct: an unequivocal and complete freeze on the settlements must occur.

The true friends of Israel must tell Israelis the truth. And the truth is that there can be no peace without a settlement freeze. Whether you like it or not, when you are a friend you have to be demanding and frank. A friend has the right to say that Israel is mistaken if it thinks it can pursue colonization and expect to have peace..."

Nicolas Sarkozy, August 26th.

Well, at least its a little more ballsy than "we shall have to write a letter to inform Israel of our displeasure".

Get a load of that photo of Netanyahu. He looks like a mobster running a stolen car ring in Ingushetia.

 

BURNINGCHROME

7:03 AM ET

September 5, 2009

Again Mr. Walt jumps to conclusions

Mr. Walt writes "In an obvious gesture of defiance.."

A word of caution to Mr. Walt. VERY LITTLE IN THE MIDDLE EAST IS OBVIOUS!

So far most of this has all been based on media reports and subsequent reactions. This 'story' has yet to play itself out and is happening on a far bigger canvas than Mr. Walt evidences he comprehends.

Most likely explanation is that Israel, like all the parties, are positioning themselves preliminarily in anticipation of negotiations which are supposed to commence end of the month.

 

REXW

7:30 AM ET

September 5, 2009

More of the same

What has more punch. The latest comment states "regrets" and an earlier one by Ms Clinton stated that such activities were "unhelpful".
Assaults with a feather.
If this is what we can expect from an Obama government then it is no wonder that the look on Netanyahu's face says.......
'got the message yet? We do what we like our her in our patch, so there. We know that the support we get in your country means that we own your Middle Eastern Foreign Policy, so go whistle, Yankees. I mean, we don't even like you. Why do you think we spend so much money on the fawning, sycophantic Congress members, wining, dining, grafting, day in, day out. Got the message yet? We do what we want"

How sad it is that the so-called world's leading nation is captive to a universally disliked and arrogant country which accepts all the largesse they can squeeze out of their benefactors and mentors, knowing that no one will raise a finger to curb their expansionism on land they do not own, and never have.

The yardstick for Obama's success in government is to bring this uncontrolled country under control, to shown them that as the so-called representative of 'freedom', they can wield some weight and watch out Israel if you disregard what we say. The alternative is what we have seen to date, a great big tiger with no teeth. The US is a laughing stock right now.

Let me offer some suggestions, some rules to follow...

o Dual citizens may not vote in U.S. national elections.
(How can you be a citizen of two countries?)

o Dual citizens may not run for national office
(Make up your mind..are you a US citizen or an Israeli citizen)

o Congressmen/women who accept AIPAC money may not vote on any issues to do with the allocation of funds to Israel or US decisions on Middle Eastern matters

o AIPAC must be made to register as a lobby for a foreign nation.

Israel will get away with whatever they can and have done for 50 years and with AIPAC controlling all the weak, sycophantic but disloyal (to the US) Congress members, the US is losing respect all over the world.

 

KEYRAN

1:26 PM ET

September 5, 2009

Bully Guru

Compliments to Rexw
and to SW for the great action photo of Bibi!

Bibi is Israel's Bully Guru...elected by the jolly citizens, high on the delicious sadism of Gaza----

and all the delirium is supported 100% by the USA--
Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave.

 

CASTELLIO

4:50 PM ET

September 5, 2009

Walt's question is "why

Walt's question is "why should anyone expect Israel's behavior to change". The answer: no-one does. Nor does anyone expect the American behavior to change.

 

BETZ55

5:01 AM ET

September 6, 2009

If Mr Obama is really

If Mr Obama is really interested in "change" we can believe in then he needs to "change" the same old rhetoric, and dogmatic, unquestioned, unconditional support of Israel. Level the playing field and be an honest broker of the "change" he is espousing. The same old empty rhetoric of 'regrets' is so disappointing. Jesus, why doesn't the man take a stand and do something?

I will be proud of the day when Obama puts the interest of America before the interest of Israel, if he at all has the balls to do it. The oath of allegiance that I said everyday in school was not to Israel, but America.

The time has come for the US to stop pandering to Israel and it's destructive, belligerent, failed policies.

As long as the Israelis pay no price for the occupation, the occupation will not end, and therefore the only way open to the opponents of the occupation is to take concrete means that will make the Israelis understand that the injustice they are perpetrating comes with a price tag.

Doesn't Obama realize his credibility is on the line here?

 

STACYX

2:41 PM ET

September 6, 2009

I agree 100% Mr. Walt- the US

I agree 100% Mr. Walt- the US looks incredibly weak and how pathetic is it to issue a statement saying that "The U.S. commitment to Israel's security is and will remain unshakeable" right after Bibi has slapped us in the face in a very public way? It sounds a bit like "thank you sir, may I have another?"

Unless the US is willing to play hardball, Bibi and his far-right friends will keep upping the ante.

************************
Secretary Clinton Blog

 

CLINT

3:21 PM ET

September 6, 2009

Why does Prof Walt not

Why does Prof Walt not support Sanctions and Divestment?

If Obama is really pissed at Bibi, he can cut off all funding for Israel. Obvious.

Prof., I can see why you don't support an academic boycott, but do you support divestment and sanctions? Show us your academic freedom please.

 

CLINT

3:25 PM ET

September 6, 2009

Prof. Walt's questions "why

Prof. Walt's questions "why should anyone expect Israel's behavior to change"?

They should not because leading academics like Prof Walt do not support divestment and sanctions on Israel.

Prof., how about issuing a statement to zero out our aid to Israel?

 

RICHARD WITTYQ

4:09 PM ET

September 6, 2009

Presumption

One aspect of all of the recent state to state discussion and reporting of that discussion since Obama and Netanyahu has been in power, is of stealth.

Even though I read in depth on the Israel/Palestine, Israel/US relations, I don't have any basis to know what was said behind closed doors, what euphemisms were applied toward what meaning.

And, certainly not sufficiently to discern who is winning the "Go" game. (If you've ever played "Go", you know that among skilled players, the outcome of the game can change 180 degrees on the basis of apparently undramatic moves. An unpracticed, and many practiced, players cannot tell a mid-point, what is the outcome.)

To Professor Walt, are you sure that the term "regret" is not a prior articulated warning term, indicating some subsequent consequence?

I'm not.

 

A BALANCED VIEW

4:11 PM ET

September 6, 2009

It's time to put up or shut up.

Every bi partisan expert panel that has looked at the settlements and the occupation has come to the conclusion that they play a significant role in creating the hatred and unrest in the entire REGION that helps drive terrorist recruiting and funding, the very sort of recruiting and funding that made 9/11 possible, and will also make future 9/11s possible.

The occupation and settlements are the longest standing open wound (with a US stamp of approval on it) that the region has endured, and the Iraq Study Group, many in the CIA, members of the 9/11 commission, Bill Clinton Jimmy Carter, Colin Powell, Tony Blair, and manyother experts agree that there will never be an end to the war on terror ( and the staggering costs that it generates for this nation in blood and treasure) until the settlements and the occupation are ended completely and for good.

There is a reason that the US State Department has deemed them to be illegal; They are the only example of a violently enforced colonial settler movement on the entire planet, and as such, are an affront to human rights and the values that virtually define the US.

There must be a political price for the Obama administartion for turning a blind eye to this travesty, even as we continue to FUND IT. Yes, we fund it in the sense that Israel would not need a dime from us (they are a relatively wealthy nation, where people live lives more or less on par with US citizens, although they have the advantage of a universal health care system) if it were not for the crushing costs associated with running the worlds only violently enforced colonial settler movement.

In other words, dump the settlements and the occupation they necessitate, and the US and Israel become safer, save money and lives, and are looked upon by the entire region and the rest of the world as having finally done away with a long standing evil.

The settlers are the Israeli equivalent of the KKK, but the government there actually dispatches their army to HELP them reign havoc and violence down on innocent people rather that fight to stop them.

We MUST make the Obama administration politically REGRET their inaction and enabling behavior vastly more than they regret the expansion of a patently evil program that even now is creating the hatred and unrest in the middle East that will lead to the next 9/11.

 

JJH722

1:01 AM ET

September 7, 2009

The Obama administration

The Obama administration doesn't have the nerve to threaten Israel with anything concrete. As Walt is aware, their "lobby" is not challenged in Washington over peanuts or anything else. And Bibi can't be expected to do anything other than what he is doing without severe American pressure. Only if the administration announces a rejection of loan guarantees a la Bush, Sr. will Obama have a chance at the policy he claims to pursue. Still, there are no guarantees of success if he decides to ramp up the pressure. He has to decide where to place his bets--this conflict is almost insoluble, so he'll likely kick the can down the road and preserve his political capital despite an instinctive aversion to these Israeli policies.

 

REXW

1:28 AM ET

September 7, 2009

Is anyone really listening in Washington?

Do you ever feel after reading the comments above that there is no one listening, that it is all just too hard to change the status quo, one that has gone on far too long and looks like being a never-ending saga.
You also get the feeling that Netanyahu is also content to allow things to remain the same. After all, it was the Israeli equivalent of the KKK, known as the 'settlers' that put him in power, a sad indictment of the hateful climate that exists in that ill-begotten country.
Why is the US a captive of these people? The regard by Israelis of the US as a country is as low as one would find anywhere in the world, yes, including Russia.
Face it Mr. President. Millions of Americans voted you into power to make changes. It is not too hard and just requires someone to bring a bill before Congress outlining the basis of a future relationship with Israel. JUST ANOTHER COUNTRY, please, that's all it is. It is self-sufficent, able to stand on its own two feet economically but right now is a continual drain on the political and economic resources of your country, desperately trying to finance a health care plan , something that is currently enjoyed by all Israelis. Think, of it...you are supporting a country that doesn't even like you, and whose citizens enjoy better living conditions that you do and show you daily by their actions that they disregard your aims and ambitions for the region. Do they try to meet you half way...never have and never will. This is the epitome of a selfish nation with total disregard for fair play and honesty.
Cut them adrift by way of a bill that all Congress must vote on and then sort out the sheep from the goats, the people loyal to the US and those who should be regarded as Israelis but residing in the US. When asked to make that choice, I am sure that even the most sycophantic Congress members will revert to type and choose to be Americans. Right now, they can be both.
Absolutely ridiculous.

 

CASSMAN

6:49 AM ET

September 7, 2009

While it's outrageous

While it's outrageous behavior, I can hardly say I'm surprised. Israel will always do whatever it thinks is best for Israel at the expense of the rest of the Middle East. The U.S. will continue to pay bribes both to Israel and whomever they decide to bomb next. Meanwhile, the Israelis and their U.S. apologists continue to fume and fuss over Iran's bad behavior. I guess Iran should just go the Israel route and renounce its support for the NPT.

The U.S. is too vested in Israel to be an honest broker, despite Mr. Obama's truly good intentions. We have never been able to get concessions from Israel because we can't give Israel a real stick. All we do is just throw more carrots, and when they behave badly, they get a stern talking to, followed by more carrots. While I would like to believe Congress is not just Israel's lawyer, I really have not seen otherwise. I think that the U.S. will not start really punishing Israel until a major country, say Britain or France, decides to suspend arms shipments.

 

CASSMAN

6:55 AM ET

September 7, 2009

And another thing

What's so infuriating is that Israel talks a big talk, but they rely on the U.S. to do their own fighting for them. The IDF is a just a hussied-up police force harassing poorly armed Palestinians and Lebanese. That's why they want the U.S. to recruit its allies against Iran. The world knows that it's Israel's problem, and if Israel pitched sanctions against Iran around the world, they would get nowhere.

What's worse is that Israel is dragging us down with it. We need to clearly establish that the U.S. is NOT Israel, despite what some of its most esteemed apologists would have us think.

 

BLUE13326

8:37 PM ET

September 7, 2009

This is likely positioning

This is likely positioning for Obama's deadline for Iran later this month; since, as has been discussed here, Obama has unwisely linked a settlement freeze with getting tough on Iran, this may be Israel's way of indicating that it is not going to take Obama seriously if he doesn't take some action on Iran after his self-imposed deadline.

Other points to consider are that this move, from what I have read, is popular within Israel; and so domestic concerns likely play into this. Second, Israel is still very popular in the US, and vastly more Americans in polls blame the Palestinians, rather than the Israelis, for the problems in the Mideast, so Israel may be counting on US public sentiment to prevent Obama from taking serious action.

 

GOEDEL

9:13 PM ET

September 7, 2009

Making up my mind

Raised by Jewish parents in a Jewish community of Brooklyn, New York, during WWII, I share the concerns of most Jewish Americans about Israel. My concerns are dominated by the future of the United States, which I do not view with equanimity. My forebodings are enhanced by the egregious mistakes of the Obama administration since inauguration with regard to the President's constitutional responsibilities and his responsibilities to Americans not represented by financial and imperial lobbyists. That is where I am, right now.

I am reading Mearsheimer and Walt, "The Israel Lobby", because I want to understand the authors' positions on what the policy of the US towards Israel should be. I cannot yet comment on their book; I have not read enough. I should hope that reading on will answer my question, because it is not enough to say that our policy should be determined by our needs and not Israel's. Why not? For several reasons: needs are both short-term and long-term; needs are both physical and moral; there are needs, but there are also commitments and obligations.

From the introduction and first chapter of the "Lobby", the changed nature of our confrontations since the decline of the USSR is an important theme. On it is based the claim that Israel is now more a liability than an asset, if it was an asset before (which is also questioned). The liability comes from the hostility in the Muslim world generated towards us by our foreign policy that "favors" Israel to the disadvantage of the West Bank and Gaza Arabs, "Palestinians".

In the discussions about the US, Israel and the Arab world, certain references are constantly made. One is the "favoring" mentioned above. Another is an "even-handed" policy. Another is international law. Another is UN Res. 242. There are others, but I look forward in my continued reading to see what the "Lobby" asserts. I want to read what and "even-handed policy" in practical terms would mean. I want to see how the authors would deal with Israel's alleged violations of international law. Would they recommend that the country (the US) which has probably been the greatest violator of international law in the world since the beginning of the Eisenhower administration first atone for and correct its own violations of international law, or would they have the corrections begin with Israel's alleged violations of Res. 242? Would we first make good our own killing and maiming (or complicity therein) of millions of Asians and Latin Americans, or should the accounts begin with Israel's?

It may be argued that who is the greater violator of international law, the US or Israel, is really not germane to our discussion. That what counts is protecting the US in the future. Quite so! This is where I live, and I made the points in the previous paragraph to remind those, not the authors, who are most critical of Israel that if they are Americans they do not have a moral leg to stand on.

Neither do the Arabs. They are the greatest oppressors of their own people. Though there has been a detente between Israel and Egypt/Jordan, no Arab country recognizes Israel as a homeland for Jews, a Jewish state. Hamas and the Palestinian Authority, Syria, Iran certainly do not. Even if they were to recognize Israel, that recognition would have to have a form that would take Israel's Jewishness into account. I wonder if the authors deal with this issue as part of an even-handed approach by the US.

This is a very difficult problem, because Israel is a source of Arab militancy, but an even greater one is the occupation of Arab countries by US armed forces. I think the latter is a far more embittering aggravation to the Arab and Muslim world than the existence of Israel.

The issue in the Middle East is often stated as: there will be no peace until the Israeli / Arab conflict is settled. I think that is misplaced emphasis. I think the statement should be: there will be no subsidence of terrorism until US military forces leave the Arab world. The US, according to the authors, has favored Israel since the end of the Eisenhower administration. Terrorism, as we now know it, did not begin until the US started sending Marines and other armed forces into Arab countries.

Reading on ...

 

DICKERSON3870

2:00 AM ET

September 8, 2009

"Open wide and take this, boy!"

RE: "the Netanyahu government in Israel intends to approve the construction of hundreds of additional housing units in West Bank settlements"

MY COMMENT: The Israelis and their neocon consorts are determined to forcibly ram this down Obama's throat; thereby making him "submit" to Israeli/Netanyahu "dominance"!

REFERENCE - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis_de_Sade

 

DAVID IN DC

7:37 PM ET

September 8, 2009

Haaretz probe: 'New' settlement permits aren't really new

Worth reading the entire thing below, but here is an excerpt. What Haaretz found doesn't support the picture that the Walts of the world are trying to paint, that of the Israelis building willy-nilly in the West Bank. It also appears that Obama was informed and the 'regrets' may simply be because they had to say something.

Only 20 of the 'newly' approved units lie outside of the large settlement blocs that Israel will very likely keep in any negotiated settlement with the Palestinians.

...In Ma'aleh Adumim, 89 units were approved yesterday in the Nofei Sela neighborhood. The area has had permission to build 3,000 homes for five years now. The Housing Ministry was issuing tenders little by little, but stopped two years ago. Now 89 units have been approved in an area slated for 300 units. Some 9,100 families live in Ma'aleh Adumim, and the new construction will increase the population by less than one percent. Mayor Benny Kashriel called the approval, a "poor man's feast."...

www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1113073.html

At the West Bank city of Ariel's adventure park, whose construction Defense Minister Ehud Barak approved, nothing special was going on yesterday. Children were trying out the climbing wall and the mayor was walking around, proud as a groom on his wedding day. The facility was actually only approved yesterday, but has been in existence for a year and a half before receiving construction permits. In fact, a demolition order was issued against it.

Haaretz checked and discovered that these permits, are no more than another layer of permits on top of those already given, but that had not gone through for various reasons. In some places work was already underway. Haaretz has also learned that all construction permits were given on condition that the buildings go up within two months, or the permit will be rescinded.

The adventure park in Ariel is only one of the approvals Barak gave yesterday. The total number of new building starts approved yesterday in West Bank Jewish settlements is 455, mainly in the settlement blocs: 149 units in Har Gilo and 12 units in Alon Shvut - both in the Etzion Bloc, 84 units in Modi'in Ilit, 76 units in the Agan Ha'ayalot neighborhood of Givat Ze'ev, 89 units in Ma'aleh Adumim and 25 units in the nearby settlement of Kedar. The construction of 20 new units was approved for Maskiot in the Jordan Valley, the only settlement not in one of the large settlement blocs. Barak also approved public projects, like the adventure park in Ariel and a new school in Har Adar.

Yesterday, bulldozers were filling trucks with sand to level lot after lot in Har Gilo. The plan to add 234 units to the settlement, first established in 1968, was approved in 1999. Former defense minister Shaul Mofaz approved the construction of 34 units, and during Olmert's tenure 55 more units were approved. In 2008, Olmert approved another 149 units and Barak did not add to this number. Work had already begun, with Barak's approval yesterday of the 149 units coming on top of Olmert's earlier approval.

Kedar has an approved plan from 1989 for the construction of 260 units. Two years ago, the community asked for permission to market another 34 units. Approval came for 17, but it was not worthwhile for the local council to lay infrastructure for such a small number of units. Yesterday, Barak approved 25 more units.

In Alon Shvut, construction was approved in a neighborhood built 15 years ago in the center of the community. At the time, permits were issued for four buildings of 12 apartments each. For unknown reasons, only three were built. For three years the local council has been seeking permission to build the fourth apartment house, which it has now received.

Shaul Goldstein, head of the Gush Etzion Regional Council, said yesterday: We thank the government for approving continued construction. However the demand is at least ten times more than the permits. We are against the very term 'freeze,' because construction is not an obstacle to peace."

Construction began in 2000 on 600 housing units in the Agan Ha'ayalot neighborhood of Givat Ze'ev. In 2002, the intifada and shooting attacks brought about an end to sales, and the apartments remained unfinished. The contractors sued the government and the case is still in court.

In 2008, a group of ultra-Orthodox entrepreneurs took over the project, and the Olmert government approved construction of 330 of the apartments, although only 250 were actually built. The government has now approved an additional 76.

Council head Yossi Avrahami said yesterday: "I have been given a permit on top of Olmert's permit for a plan that had already been approved. This permit is foolishness."

In the Jordan Valley settlement of Maskiot, founded as a Nahal outpost by the Israel Defense Forces, Barak announced 20 new homes would be built. But work has been going on there since July 2008, when the construction of the 20 units was first approved. Yesterday he gave final approval, which means the houses can actually be put up.

The head of the Jordan Valley Regional Council, David Alhiani, said yesterday: "The fact is, these apartments were approved last year, otherwise we wouldn't have begun the infrastructure. How apartments that have already been approved and have begun to be built are approved again, you should ask the defense minister, not me."

In Ma'aleh Adumim, 89 units were approved yesterday in the Nofei Sela neighborhood. The area has had permission to build 3,000 homes for five years now. The Housing Ministry was issuing tenders little by little, but stopped two years ago. Now 89 units have been approved in an area slated for 300 units. Some 9,100 families live in Ma'aleh Adumim, and the new construction will increase the population by less than one percent. Mayor Benny Kashriel called the approval, a "poor man's feast."

In the ultra-Orthodox city of Modi'in Ilit, 84 housing units were approved. They had originally been approved long before, in the midst of an existing neighborhood, but the old plan was never implemented due to a legal battle between the city and the neighboring settlement of Matityahu. All in all, three new buildings are to be constructed in Modi'in Ilit.

"After the new building permits, we are continuing toward a freeze on construction in settlements in the West Bank for a few months," a senior official said yesterday in Jerusalem.

The official also said that American envoy George Mitchell and the U.S. administration have been informed of the approvals for the new construction, and that "it was not done behind their backs." According to the official, this is the first time since the establishment of the Netanyahu government that construction has been unfrozen. The source added that over the past six months only a few permits have been given, and even the present ones are to complete ongoing projects and to approve tenders discussed in the past.

 

NORWEGIAN SHOOTER

8:20 PM ET

September 8, 2009

There's a forest of these trees

First, informed does not mean approved. The administration could have said anything it wanted about the unfreeze. As Walt points out, "regrets" is as about as weak a response as possible, not as strong.

Only 20 of the 'newly' approved units lie outside of the large settlement blocs that Israel will very likely keep in any negotiated settlement with the Palestinians.

The point is that the Israelis are building in the West Bank, not whether it is willy-nilly or otherwise. It is illegal to build in occupied territory and all of the developments you cite are illegal. It matters not a whit that Israel will very likely keep any current settlement as a result of negotiations. What matters is that any building makes those negotiations harder, draws out the peace "process," and jeopardizes the conclusion of a peace treaty.

 

DAVID IN DC

12:35 PM ET

September 9, 2009

The administration could have

The administration could have said anything it wanted about the unfreeze.

Exactly. And this is the same administration who was obviously not too shy about picking a public fight with Israel to begin with.

Walt would like to paint this as "...an obvious gesture of defiance..." and his whole post is premised on the idea that the administration didn't agree to this. (He modus operandi in general is to try to stir up public opinion against Israel, because he is smart enough to know that this is the only way his policy recommendations will win the day.) But we don't know what the adminstration really thinks. We only have their words - "regrets" - which in reality may be a sop to the other side, while in private this is part of a negotiated deal for a temporary freeze.

It is illegal to build in occupied territory and all of the developments you cite are illegal.

This is, in fact, disputed, as Walt notes in his post.

It matters not a whit that Israel will very likely keep any current settlement as a result of negotiations. What matters is that any building makes those negotiations harder, draws out the peace "process," and jeopardizes the conclusion of a peace treaty.

Eh. That really depends on the Palestinians, doesn't it? I tend to see the settlements as an excuse for them. If the Palestinians are going to agree that Israel keeps the settlement blocs (almost certain, this has been discussed and it is not one of the sticking points in the negotiations), then why the refusal to negotiate until the Israelis stop building within them. The way I see it, they should be negotiating, get borders agreed upon, and then it will be clear where Israelis can and cannot build. At the very least, if they come to the table willing to make some compromises it will show Netanyahu as the recalcitrant party. For now, with their refusal to negotiate, the Palestinians appear to be the recalcitrant ones.

Furthermore, recently there has been very little, if any, land expropriation. The settlements have not been expanding their footprint to any great extent. The whole point here is to establish a Palestinian state on X territory, not the density of Jews living in certain areas.

 

NORWEGIAN SHOOTER

7:39 PM ET

September 9, 2009

Not worthy of a rebuttal

But I'm stubborn, so here it is:

I tend to see the settlements as an excuse for them [the Palestinians].

An excuse.... Really?!? I'd put in a line about the lack of Palestinian control over settlements and your support for an illegal enterprise, but it wouldn't matter.

But if you'd like to continue, show me where Walt disputes the illegality of settlements on occupied territory.

 

DAVID IN DC

2:08 PM ET

September 10, 2009

I'd put in a line about the

I'd put in a line about the lack of Palestinian control over settlements and your support for an illegal enterprise, but it wouldn't matter.

I'd put in a line...

Right. You would put in a line, if you weren't pretending it wasn't as important to you as it really is - lol.

"It wouldn't matter" is only correct thing in that sentence.

But if you'd like to continue, show me where Walt disputes the illegality of settlements on occupied territory.

I didn't say Walt disputes it, I said he notes it is disputed:

All such settlements, it is worth noting, are considered by most of the world -- including some past U.S. administrations -- to be illegal under international law.

If you are not noting the disputation, you use the formulation: All such settlements are illegal.

The legality of the settlements is disputed. Repeating your argument ad nauseum or making appeals to popularity (the logical fallacies argumentum ad nauseam and argumentum ad populum) doesn't change that fact. It is simply your opinion, to which you are obviously entitled.

You also don't address the more important point of yours which I addressed (IMO reaching a settlement and achieving peace is much more important than the legality/illegality of settlements that will either remain with Israel or be uprooted in any event) :

It matters not a whit that Israel will very likely keep any current settlement as a result of negotiations. What matters is that any building makes those negotiations harder, draws out the peace "process," and jeopardizes the conclusion of a peace treaty.

Strangely, after making a rebuttal to something that you label not worthy of a rebuttal, and after commenting on what you say doesn't matter, and further putting words in my mouth, you don't address my comments on what you say does matter.

Why do you think that building within existing settlements will:

1) Make negotiations harder.
2) Draw out the peace "process".
3) Jeopardize the conclusion of a peace treaty.

Are there any other conditions that you think may:

1) Make negotiations harder.
2) Draw out the peace "process".
3) Jeopardize the conclusion of a peace treaty.

 

NORWEGIAN SHOOTER

6:36 PM ET

September 10, 2009

Okay, you got me, I took you much too lightly.

Forgive my previous comment, I will try to make amends here.

You're right that you didn't claim Walt disputes the settlement's illegality. However, your original use of this sentence:

All such settlements, it is worth noting, are considered by most of the world -- including some past U.S. administrations -- to be illegal under international law.

to label the illegality of all settlements "disputed" is completely disingenuous. Okay, a couple of countries, notably some of our past administrations, do not consider all settlements illegal. And I say they are illegal, which is my opinion, you're right. (Here are two people who agree with me) But let's get to where the rubber meets the road; here's a question for you:

If the Israeli government was put on trial in an international court, what is the chance that any settlement would be ruled legal? (This is not ad populum, but rather based on weighing the evidence.)

Your first question:

1. Continuing to build on occupied territory gives hard line Palestinians a legitimate grievance against the Israelis, thus the ability to exploit that grievance for their own ends. The more power the hard line Palestinians have, the harder the negotiations will be. (Same is true of Israel, obviously)

2. If Israel can continue to debate the settlements issue, they can claim that they are "negotiating" with the Palestinians, without even mentioning final parameters (borders, right of return claims, security, etc.)

3. This is really just a summary of what happens when the first two things come to pass.

I know I based the "what matters" line from something I read, I will attempt to find it and link to it.

Your second question: of course, and some are Palestinian actions to be sure, but the question we are discussing is the legality of the settlements.

PS - my captcha was Norway 1945, which creeps me out

 

DAVID IN DC

8:41 PM ET

September 10, 2009

Your second question: of

Your second question: of course, and some are Palestinian actions to be sure, but the question we are discussing is the legality of the settlements.

No, you are discussing the legality of the settlements. I simply pointed out that it is a disputed matter without taking a stand one way or another. I was discussing the practical aspects of building within existing settlements.

Addressing your points:

1. Continuing to build on occupied territory gives hard line Palestinians a legitimate grievance against the Israelis, thus the ability to exploit that grievance for their own ends. The more power the hard line Palestinians have, the harder the negotiations will be. (Same is true of Israel, obviously)

Presumably you are saying that the hard line Palestinians, by whom I am guessing you mean the Palestinians like Hamas who don't want any compromise, will try to undermine any negotiations by attempting to turn public opinion against compromise by pointing to continued building within the settlements. (Is that a fair reading?)

Your point is taken, this would certainly have some effect, but I am skeptical that this would have a large practical effect for the following reasons:

It won't make the average Palestinian want any more in negotiations or be willing to compromise any less. The only thing I could see it affecting is campaigning in elections, and in any event the last polls I saw showed "moderate" Fatah's popularity trending up and Hamas' falling.

Also, the biggest tool the hardliners have regarding their ability to undermine negotiations is violence, and any outrage they could muster up by playing on settlement building is dwarfed by what they could get by fomenting another confrontation. If Palestinians in control of territory (Hamas in Gaza or Fatah in the West Bank) want to torpedo talks, they will, with or without settlement building.

It just seems intuitive to me that if you want the Israelis to stop building on what you consider your land...make a deal. The reason they haven't yet is more fundamental than settlements and propaganda about them from hardliners (I don't believe that the average Palestinian is so easily manipulated by propaganda from the hardliners). I have discussed this before in Walt's post about Hussein and Agha's op-ed. I really believe that the average Palestinian believes it is ALL their land, and this is understandable, but it presents a sticky problem if the maximum "compromise" they will make (from their perspective) is their maximal demands that are on the table now (including full right of return to Israel for refugees and all of their descendents). It also makes adding a new block of houses in Ariel pretty small potatoes.

2. If Israel can continue to debate the settlements issue, they can claim that they are "negotiating" with the Palestinians, without even mentioning final parameters (borders, right of return claims, security, etc.)

There is no negotiating. The Palestinians refuse to. Nobody is presenting the current issue about settlements as "negotiating" with the Palestinians and I don't see why anyone would. This point doesn't make sense to me.

When negotiations do start, it won't be about housing tenders in the settlement blocs unless the Palestinians insist on making it so (and if they do, rather than deal with the more substantive issues, that would reflect on them). The talks with be about borders, etc. And defining the borders, by the way, was one of easier issues to deal with.

Your second question: of course, and some are Palestinian actions to be sure, but the question we are discussing is the legality of the settlements.

I would point to the schism in the Palestinian political body as the biggest practical impediment to a negotiated peace right now. Unless Fatah and Hamas will negotiate two separate deals for the two territories, it is pointless to try to finalize a deal. However, this doesn't mean that Fatah and Israel shouldn't be talking. They should be.

 

A BALANCED VIEW

10:11 PM ET

September 10, 2009

The US enequivocally considers the settlements illegal

Per the US state departments ruling on them decades ago, which has never been challenged,I would assume because it is simply a correct reading of the Geneva convention.

 

NORWEGIAN SHOOTER

4:41 PM ET

September 11, 2009

The core of this argument

Thanks, ABV.

It just seems intuitive to me that if you want the Israelis to stop building on what you consider your land...make a deal.

I strongly disagree. I also reject both your implication that the West Bank might not be Palestinian land and arguing with your intuition.

This debate is full of comparisons that don't convince the other side of anything, but I will attempt one anyway. Would you make a deal with somebody who parked a bulldozer on your lawn to let them keep it there or would you call the cops?

 

DAVID IN DC

8:31 PM ET

September 11, 2009

I strongly disagree. I also

I strongly disagree. I also reject both your implication that the West Bank might not be Palestinian land and arguing with your intuition.

I am referring to national sovereignty here and not individual land ownership. The facts are that the West Bank and Gaza are disputed territory. The final disposition and borders are to be determined by negotiations. It was offered to the Palestinians a number of times, but they refused. Jordan occupied it in 1948 and Israel won it from them in 1967.

I'm sure I feel as strongly as you that this should eventually be Palestine. It would be the best thing by far for people in Israel, Palestine and beyond. But as the old saying says -- you are entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.

As for your analogy, it sounds as if you are rejecting any territorial swaps as part of a negotiated deal ("your lawn" being the settlements, I hope, and not Israel within the Green Line which is how many Palestinians see it I am sure). That position makes you more hardline and less compromising than the Palestinian negotiating team, which was amenable to this formulation.

Your resistance to compromise is a stance which I reject. Only through compromise will this conflict be solved and thereby improve the lives of people in the region.

 

NORWEGIAN SHOOTER

4:48 AM ET

September 12, 2009

We'll run out of room soon

No, the fact is that the West Bank is occupied territory. The legal border of Israel is the Green Line. (Why would you say Jordan occupied but Israel won it?)

My analogy had nothing to do with territorial swaps, but that it is ridiculous to propose making a deal with the bulldozer owner over removing his bulldozer. His action is illegal, he has the obligation to move it.

Please don't be sure about how Palestinians see anything. I'm sure you don't know.

I resist "compromising" over where the legal border of Israel is. Suggest something else I might compromise on. Do you think building a wall in the West Bank helps to compromise?

 

DAVID IN DC

12:32 PM ET

September 12, 2009

No, the fact is that the West

No, the fact is that the West Bank is occupied territory.

This doesn't rebut anything. I never said the West Bank wasn't occupied. It is occupied and disputed. What it isn't is occupied and Palestinian.

The legal border of Israel is the Green Line.

As with a number of the other items we have discussed, you have the facts wrong. The Green Line is an armistice line and not a border. The borders must be negotiated.

My analogy had nothing to do with territorial swaps, but that it is ridiculous to propose making a deal with the bulldozer owner over removing his bulldozer. His action is illegal, he has the obligation to move it.

In that case, unless you are proposing the Palestinians not negotiate and not make a deal, it is a very weak analogy, not applicable to the situation as it exists today. Pointless really.

Please don't be sure about how Palestinians see anything. I'm sure you don't know.

You may be sure, but you are also wrong. This is yet another opinion, not a fact. Since extensive polling data and statements from Palestinian leadership, the Palestinian population, and Palestinian interlocutors (see: Malley and Agha, among others) exist, we can be sure about how segments of the Palestinian population see things.

I resist "compromising" over where the legal border of Israel is.

Most people who support a negotiated peace realize that this is an issue where there will be some kind of compromise. If by "legal border" you are referring to the Green Line erroneously, well, nobody is disputing where the Green Line lies.

Do you think building a wall in the West Bank helps to compromise?

First of all, given that it has saved dozens if not hundreds of lives, and the data is out there if you care to search for it, I think the worth of the security fence (it really is a fence through 95% of its length) is immeasurable (and, to be sure, must be measured against the hardships it imposes for people too).

But as far as compromise is concerned, it is a non-factor. The Israelis aren't saying (or at least, I am not aware of it), 'We have the fence here, therefore the land to the east of it is ours'. It isn't a factor in negotiations. The fence is there to protect people and will be moved when borders are negotiated.

The fence was primarily built to stop the infiltration of suicide bombers. It is a wall in the places where Palestinians were shooting at people, from high rises for instance, a fence being insufficient to stop bullets.

 

NORWEGIAN SHOOTER

7:56 PM ET

September 14, 2009

I was going to give up...

but this popped up over the weekend. Land First, Then Peace by Turki al-Faisal. Enjoy!

 

DAVID IN DC

3:23 AM ET

September 15, 2009

From your link...For Saudis

From your link...

For Saudis to take steps toward diplomatic normalization before this land is returned to its rightful owners would undermine international law and turn a blind eye to immorality.

Because, of course, everyone knows that international law and morality guides everything the Saudis do ;-).

Now, Israeli leaders hint that they are willing to return portions of these occupied territories to Arab control, but only if they are granted military and economic concessions first. For the Arabs to accept such a proposal would only encourage similar outrages in the future by rewarding military conquest.

Moral of the story: Don't start wars and you won't lose territory. It is understandable that a Saudi prince would classify the humiliating Arab defeat in 1967 as an outrage, but generally the aggressor does pay a penalty for starting a war.

I also question his notion that having normal diplomatic and economic relations with a neighbor is such a huge concession. It sounds like it would be in both countries' interests.

"...encourage similar outrages in the future by rewarding military conquest."

Right. Put another way, the smooth-talking Saudi prince is saying that the Arabs might end their hostility, but only if their target erases all previous consequences they have brought upon themselves because of it.

Logic suggests that the hostility, which predated the consequences, should be addressed first. Common sense suggests that since Arab hostility was the cause of the military conquest, the prince is being disengenuous when he frets that normalization would encourage further military conquests to exact concessions. This is particularly true given that the only thing Israel is asking for is normal relations, i.e., an end to the Arab hostility which brought about all of these consequences. Is the prince really afraid that normalizing relations, for instance, might encourage Israel to take Mecca and hold it hostage for the Saudi crown jewels?

 

TESS

8:02 PM ET

September 8, 2009

But here's my question: If

But here's my question: If Netanyahu and Co. can count on this "unshakeable commitment" no matter what they do, why should anyone expect their behavior to change?

As far as I can tell there are only a couple means of changing Israel's behavior in this conflict.

1. As a democracy, it can do so in direct response to the demands of the electorate. (Given the far right elections, that is not likely.)

2. Influence of a Hegemonic power forcing Israel to change its behavior.

3. A change in Israel's relative balance of power; such that it see more advantage in bargaining than it does in its current position. (That is the USA and Europe through policy choices stop subsidizing Israel, and let it shift to something more like its actual power in the region.)

4. A change in the balance of power in the international system or internal system that brings a decline in Israel's relative power. Either because its backers are no longer in strength to lend support or because the Arabs have one of their factors of power increase, like relative population size.

At this point, the latter is the only option that seems possible.

 

GOEDEL

4:37 PM ET

September 9, 2009

I agree that no. 4 is a possibility, but ...

No. 4 is a possibility, but the balance change Tess suggests would be due to a decline in US power. I don't think that any other power is aiding Israel. Population increase in the Arab world is likely, but if the increase threatened Israel by means of renewed warfare that would bring a catastrophe to all the warring parties and possibly some that are not warring.

US power decline is a clear prospect, for better or worse. Was it Yogi Berra who said, "What can't continue, doesn't!" Too grammatical for Berra? Maybe! Chalmers Johnson clearly says so.

Would it be for better or worse? If the decline brought about a change in the internal politics of the US, if it brought us back to a government that rules by informed consent in place of induced stupor that would be good. Probably, it would result in another round of McCarthyism or something worse.

Hope you don't mind my comment. My own submissions don't seem to get much notice :)

 

TESS

7:27 PM ET

September 9, 2009

don't mind

Hi,

I really don't mind your comment. It is an interesting perspective.

Decline in US power does not mean that Israel cannot cultivate another protector. So, it is not a fait accompli.

I read below that you don't have University Library Access; frustratingly I don't either. When I did, however, I found documents on Israel's military budgets very insightful. At least at that point, the US transfers were only expected to account for about a quarter of the military budget. European transfers were about another quarter and weaponry gifts (planes, copters, tanks, ect...) were over an above.

 

GOEDEL

11:06 PM ET

September 8, 2009

Having read on in "The Israel Lobby", ...

I found much data that I cannot verify, because I do not have access to a university library. Probably the wealth of footnotes supports the text; otherwise the book would by now have been sharply repudiated on the basis of fact. I do not challenge, in any case, the authors' claims that the US has been greatly supportive, financially and diplomatically, of Israel in recent decades. I do not challenge that the Lobby has been very effective in having the wishes of the Israeli government, if not all their people, made a part of US policy. With that in mind, I decided to skip to the last chapter, "Conclusion: What is to be done?"

The authors describe US interests in the region as threefold: 1) maintaining the flow of oil into the world market; 2) discouraging ME states from obtaining WMD's; 3) reducing anti-US terrorism.

To accomplish these three goals the US should not invade and occupy Muslim countries; rather implement an "offshore balancing" policy, the authors assert.

We, the US, should treat Israel as a "normal" country, "like France"!

Israel should be pressured to withdraw in a final settlement to pre-1967 war lands, for the most part.

Israel should recognize the Arab "right of return" in terms of compensations.

My views are: first, I don't feel that the authors are anti-Semitic or anti-Israel. I do agree that the Lobby has been extremely influential, which is its right. I think all of our lobbies are too influential, and the interests of ordinary Americans are not represented by our elected officials. I find the suggested remedies "offshore balancing", treating Israel like France, demanding the pre-1967 boundaries, compensation for "right of return" unrealistic.

How would offshore balancing have worked with regard to the invasion of Kuwait by Suddam's Iraq? Would Saudi Arabia have stationed US forces in SA before the invasion in order to prevent it? I don't think so. Would Turkey? I don't think so. Would Israel? Possibly, but I don't think so. Jordan? Hardly! Where does the US put these forces that would be "offshore"? What might have prevented Saddam's invasion would have been clarity on the part of US diplomats. I am reminded of Dean Acheson's forgetting to include Korea in his list of countries that concern the US. Then we had the Korean War!

Treat Israel like France? Do the authors mean France before WWI, WWII, now? We did treat France as a self-sufficient country in the 20th century, and it was invaded twice. Now, it does not have hostile neighbors as does Israel. Israel now is more like France in August 1914.

To require Israel to withdraw to pre-1967 boundaries is counter-intuitive. Israel was attacked by all of its Arab neighbors. It defeated them. To require Israel to go back to the boundaries before it was attacked is, I find, ridiculous. Surely, I nation ought not to expand by warfare as an aggressor; but as a defender? Why not? I see no moral problem in a nation's successful self-defense and compensation in the form of expanded boundaries.

All of the pressures by the US suggested by the authors are to be on Israel. With "even-handedness" in mind, I wonder what the US pressures on the Arabs are to be. Are they just to sign a treaty of peace with Israel? A piece of paper for the security of the Golan Heights? A piece of paper for most of the West Bank? It does not seem very "even" to me.

I think that were the US to free itself from the Lobby and revise its policies towards Israel, that would be a wise course for us where it is possible. I just don't think that the authors have given us real possibilities. What they have done is make clear what a mess we are in.

I'll suggest a way out. Spend as much money replacing oil with renewable energy as we are in sending armies around the world and we shall no longer need to be concerned about the Middle East or Central Asia. A side benefit: mitigating global warming.

 

A BALANCED VIEW

4:47 PM ET

September 9, 2009

The "attacks" were preemptive in 67.

Israel does not have any actively hostile neighbors. Syria? no. Lebanon? Hardly. Jordan? Absolutely not.

The relatively minor irritations of Hezbollah and Hamas are dwarfed by the devastating damage that Israel has reigned down on Gaza and Lebanon, more as collective punishment than any real attempt to put an end to those organizations.

In fact, the best way to put an end to those organizations is to put strong UN peace keeping forces in those areas (beef up the one already in Lebanon), which would protect Israel, but, more importantly, prevent Israel from ever entering those regions or their air space again in order to wantonly murder and punish innocent civilians under the guise of self defense.
If Israel no longer was able to bomb and run assassination raids in those regions, interest in both Hezbollah and Hamas would dwindle as normal people got about the business of building normal lives.

The KEY to peace is to pull the settlers, every one of them, from the occupied territories and end the occupation entirely. Only then will there be peace, and only then will the US benefit from reduced terrorism, (which is the ULTIMATE POINT of Walt and Mearshiemers book, that the US engage in policy that benefits the People of the US first and foremost) in that we are associated with the worlds only violently enforced colonial settler movement.

1) The settlements have always been illegal, are considered illegal by the US state department, and are not recognized by a single other nation on the planet as having any legitimacy.

2) The Geneva convention expressly forbids transfer of citizens onto occupied soil.

Why are they viewed with such disdain and why should they cease to exist entirely?

Because they are the only example of a violently enforced colonial settler movement on the planet. To suggest that such an action is DEFENSIVE in nature is ludicrous. Occupying a nation may be required for defense, but, as the Geneva convention and virtually every single other nation on the planet agree, violently settling it and ethnically cleansing its population is ALWAYS wrong and should never be tolerated.

 

GOEDEL

11:59 PM ET

September 9, 2009

Preemptive is legal; preventive is not.

Your assessment "relatively minor" irritations is notably insensitive to years of rocketry and human missiles killing, injuring and threatening Israeli civilians. It would not be relatively minor to you, if your family had experienced it. I am certain that if Israel could have focused its responses on Hamas and/or Hezbollah, it would have. I don't excuse the Israeli leaders (Sharon, Olmert) who have permitted unnecessary casualties on civilians any more than I excuse our own leaders from Presidents Eisenhower to Obama for similar behavior.

As for the settlements, the opinions of the international community would be more cogent if it had been equally offended by other violators of international law, including the United States of America. The settlements were, I believe, a response to the refusal of the Arab world after 1967 to come to terms with Israel's existence - until the conditional acceptances announced recently. They wanted to play a waiting game. What they got were settlements.

The ideas of Mearsheimer and Walt for dealing with the mess in the Middles East would be better directed at removing the US from Iraq and Afghanistan, if the goal is to reduce terrorist recruiting. The Israel Lobby? I feel the same way about it as I do about the lobbies for the defense industries, insurance, finance, sugar, agribusiness, etc. They are all bad, because their influence is disproportionate. Want to fix it? Call for a constitutional convention. There is a lot of work to be done on our 18th century relic.

 

A BALANCED VIEW

2:14 AM ET

September 10, 2009

The building of the

The building of the settlements Settlements have always been led by the actions of extremists who have always felt it their right to steal that land. It was not legal when it started, it was not legal as it continued for decades, and it is not legal now. The settlements are morally indefensible,and needlessly inspire terror in both Israel and the US.

The settlements and the occupation CAUSE the suffering of millions of Palestinians, and have for decades, while the vast majority of Israelis live lives much like those of Americans.

It is the occupation and the settlements that cause this situation, that prevent Palestinians autonomy, and are the main inspiration for the conflict for the last 4 decades, when it should have ended decades ago. There has NEVER been a period in which the settlements have stopped growing, not during any past negotiations, and now, not during THIS ONE either.

since 2001, 13 Israeli people, including soldiers died as the result of rocket attacks, while the various Israeli operations in Gaza alone to prevent them resulted in the deaths of thousands, and also caused the utter destruction of the areas infrastructure and the maintenance of a brutal siege for further collective punishement.

You seem disingenuous when you suggest that there are any sound reasons why such a hideously lopsided situation should be further exacerbated by the continuation of the worlds only violently enforced colonial settler movement. Such a thing is NEVER justified, and it stands in direct contravention to the values that virtually define the US, while causing needless, great expense in lives and treasure to the US as we mistakenly continue to subsidize this decades old abject moral and strategic failure.

 

GOEDEL

3:23 AM ET

September 10, 2009

Values that "virtually" define the US

I wonder what those values are! But wait! You wrote "virtually" define. You must mean fair-play, the pursuit of happiness, government by consent, liberty and justice for all, freedom of this and that.... I wonder how many Latins or Asians think that those are our real values as distinguished from our "virtual" values. I wonder how many Americans think they are real; I don't!

Shall we give up our settlements in Iraq (the big one in Baghdad, the size of several football fields costing 700 billion dollars and four or five others like it in other parts of Iraq)? Do you think the Iraqis want us camping there indefinitely, like Israelis on the West Bank?

Now, as to expense, according to Mearsheimer and Walt, our aid to Israel is of the order of four billion dollars a year. That's a pittance compared to what we have been and are squandering in Iraq and Af-Pak. Why don't you go after the big savings? Join with George Will and me! Let's march on Washington, the three of us! Last word.

 

A BALANCED VIEW

10:07 PM ET

September 10, 2009

You continue to miss the point

We are, in large part, involved in those other conflicts, because of the spectacularly effective terrorist marketing campaign that 40 plus years of the worlds only violently enforced colonial settler movement has provided to terrorist recruiters and fund raisers in the middle east.

Bill Clinton said that the Israeli Palestinian conflict is the "philosophical underpinning of Middle Eastern Terrorist recruiting". Tony Blair said, to the US congress after 9/11, that there will "never be an end to the war on terror until there is a just and equitable end to the Israeli Palestinian conflict". The Iraq Study Group wrote that we will make little or no real progress in Iraq or throughout the region until the occupation and settlements are finished. THe head of the CIAs bin laden unit says much the same thing.

The point is that the settlements ARE the Israeli Palestinian conflict, and when they and the occupation that they solely necessitate are removed, the conflict will come to an end.

Regarding the values that define the US, we violently threw off British tyranny because the taxed us without representation. Although We committed genocide and ethic cleansing on the native Americans, we have subsequently created a system that threw of slavery, then forced segregation, then committed itself to upholding human rights, and, at least publicly defending people from ethnic cleansing, genocide, apartheid, and the like.

The Settlements are a rotting albatross around both our and the Israelis neck. When they are thrown off, we will both benefit.

 

GOEDEL

12:45 AM ET

September 11, 2009

I don't think I miss much

I think that settlements do have to be examined, Israel's and ours - in more than 800 military and naval bases that circle the globe. Our "settlements" are impoverishing us. My view is that not all of Israel's settlements are reversible, and Israel deserves compensation for the wars of aggression against it. I think that Sharon, Olmert and others who may have committed war crimes should be answerable, as should GWB and others of our still living presidents. Not only war crimes, but violations of international law, torture, should be punished, from the top down.

As for our accomplishments as a nation, they have been so slow and filled with violence that I take only a small comfort in them. Representative government? Representing whom? Corporate America? Pshaw!

As for priorities, if ending terrorism is the goal, then Clinton, Blair and I know that the chief source of it is American projection of military power onto Arab soil. Not only is it the chief source, it is also our most costly endeavor. The imperialists who persist in doing it would like to shift attention to Israel as the source of terrorism. Remember, though bin Laden would like Israel destroyed, it was the stationing of US soldiers by GHWB in Saudi Arabia that bin Laden could not abide. The desire of our ruling elite to control oil resources produced bin Laden; not the settlements on the West Bank.

I think in the future, historians will regard the imperialistic efforts of the US to maintain a hegemony over petroleum resources as the height of folly at a time when the earth's climate is being severely threatened by the consumption of fossil fuels.

 

A BALANCED VIEW

3:29 PM ET

September 11, 2009

Of course the necessary

Of course the necessary presence of the US in the region is a big part of the problem. Our presence there, until oil is just a lubricant, is a fact of life. That's why having the Israelis piss off virtually every Arab and Muslim nation in the world (many in the region that is of vital interest to us) by subjugating the Palestinians in the worlds only violently enforced colonial settler movement is SUCH A BAD THING FOR THE US. We are already in an unenviable position in the region. The settlements make life DRAMATICALLY harder simply because they fly in the face of every value that we claim to uphold, and are morally indefensible and strategically less than useless.

Furthermore, the day that oil becomes largely a lubricant only is coming great deal faster than most people realize.
If, by that time, Israel has not only abandoned the settlements and occupation, but made peace with the Palestinian state and all of their other neighbors, they will begin to find out first hand just how "special" their relationship with the US is without oil as part of the regional equation. I think they will find that all those cowards in the house and senate who supported them now because its easy will turn their backs on them in a heartbeat when THAT becomes the politically expedient thing to do. I hope the Israelis are smart enough to avoid this scenario and learn to give up apartheid and ethnic cleansing
in the name of ultra nationalism and religious fanaticism just as we threw off slavery.

 

GOEDEL

4:58 PM ET

September 11, 2009

OK, we disagree on which is the more significant cause

OK, we disagree on which is the more significant cause of terrorism and the greater drain on the US. You have the last word in the exchange :)

 

GOEDEL

2:31 AM ET

September 10, 2009

Choosing an easy target

Far more effective in reducing the terrorist threat against the US would be a rapid US troop withdrawal from Iraq and Af-Pak than ending the US special relationship with Israel. A withdrawal would clot the flow of young recruits to jihad and murderous suicide.

Only a George Will can advocate an end to the US occupation of Afghanistan. He has already established himself as an intellectual among the conservatives, and "academic freedom" allows him to say things that would be traitorous for a liberal to say, at least among the media wingnuts.

Respectability in the establishment for pundits other than George Will requires no thought of withdrawal until it may be termed "responsible", whatever than means.

So it is much safer to concentrate on a secondary problem, the American support of Israel, even though it costs us far less each year by a factor of more than a hundred, maybe a thousand with long-term costs, than our wars in Iraq and Af-Pak. Yes, let's dump on Israel. It's much safer!

 

LFC

10:28 PM ET

September 11, 2009

In the discussion upthread

In the discussion upthread about the settlements, no one (unless I missed it) seems to have mentioned the West Bank barrier wall/fence that Israel built. One of the effects of the wall is to establish 'facts on the ground' that put limits in advance on the shape of any negotiated agreement, should one ever be concluded.

 

Stephen M. Walt is the Robert and Renée Belfer professor of international relations at Harvard University.

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