Posted By Stephen M. Walt Share

Some semi-random thoughts on events that occurred since Friday.

1. I thought about posting something about Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's most recent fit of Holocaust denial, but Juan Cole said everything I would have said with just the right tone of outrage. For what it's worth, I see this latest bit of bile as a sign of desperation on Ahmadinejad's part. The government faced renewed protests last week and seems to be somewhat at a loss for how to deal with its manifest unpopularity. As I noted during the initial round of demonstrations that followed the elections in June, Iran's leaders are increasingly out of touch with the broader population, and especially its younger elements. The clerics are a bunch of old men, and Ahmadinejad himself hardly in the bloom of youth at 53. By contrast, seventy percent of Iran's population is under 30 and was born after the 1980 revolution. Spouting foolish and hateful nonsense about the Holocaust isn't going to buy him much support at home or abroad, and I think it's a sign of waning legitimacy for the clerical regime as presently constituted. I just hope we don't do something stupid that allows him to rally nationalist feeling.

2. A reader wrote in and pointed out that I had incorrectly referred to "Czechoslovakia" in my post last week on Obama's missile defense decision.  My bad; I obviously should have said "Czech Republic." 

3. Why is Benjamin Netanyahu stiffing Obama and Mitchell, and why are they letting him? My answer to that question is in Sunday's Washington Post.

4. Matt Yglesias had a nice comment over the weekend about one of my pet peeves: the infamous "Munich analogy." His obvious but still very important point is that making Adolf Hitler's behavior your standard guide to foreign policy is foolish, because Hitlers are (fortunately) quite rare and you'll do a lot of stupid things when dealing with the overwhelming percentage of governments that aren't Nazi Germany and who aren't led by a genocidal monster.

I would only add a corollary comment: another reason Britain and France had trouble dealing with Hitler is that they were overcommitted in other areas (such as the Far East), and were also loathe to get too close to Stalin's Russia. The lesson (which those who constantly warn of another "Munich" never mention), is that you can get your country in just as much trouble by exaggerating threats and losing sight of strategic priorities as you can by failing to respond vigorously enough when a real challenge arises. For more on how Munich has been misused in policy debates, check out the late Ernest May's "Lessons" of the Past: the Use and Misuse of History in American Foreign Policy (1973), and Christopher Layne's article "Security Studies and the Use of History: Neville Chamberlain's Grand Strategy Re-Visited." in the July 2008 issue of Security Studies.

BEHROUZ MEHRI/AFP/Getty Images

 
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NORWEGIAN SHOOTER

4:02 PM ET

September 21, 2009

Thanks for continuing to speak out on Israel/Palestine

I completely agree with the main points of the Washington Post op-ed, but you do yourself no favors by speculating on the potential outcome of Obama putting pressure on Israel to stop settlement building. You could have easily stopped at "Israel's supporters in the media" and remained on solid ground.

"[I]mperiling the rest of Obama's agenda" is an unneeded stretch and "conceivably his prospects for reelection" is outright wild hyperbole. I'm sure your critics are furiously typing criticism of this last remark as I write this.

Stick to "just the facts" to avoid being written off by a large group of readers.

 

SJH71

4:39 PM ET

September 21, 2009

Munich...and Vietnam

Of course, the "lessons" of Munich are overgeneralized to a silly degree, and yes, by the Right. However, the flip side is that for the Left (by which I mean to include much of the current Congress, for example, so if you wish, the center-left), the defining analogy is Vietnam, which is absurdly over-generalized without ever really being substantively analyzed.

 

NORWEGIAN SHOOTER

10:02 PM ET

September 21, 2009

But Vietnam's situation has been repeated

Hilter's Nazi Germany was a unique historical event. However, invading foreign countries on weak ideological premises has obviously happened (Iraq) and some are advocating for repeating it again (Iran). The analogy is applicable and relevant.

What members of the Congress actually did apply the lesson of Vietnam and vote against the Iraq War II?

 

SJH71

4:32 PM ET

September 22, 2009

Well, expansionist military

Well, expansionist military agression is not a unique event, and when or whether to check it is what is being argued by analogy to Munich. Hitler's Nazy Germany was fairly unique, but the geopolitical calculus at the start of WWII is not especially unique in comparison to the the American experience in Vietnam, which is, after all, its own unique historical event.

There is much more to the Vietnam analogy than "invading foreign countries on weak ideological premises" (which, by the way, doesn't tell us much -- wars not fought on "weak...premises" are the exception). Much of it has to do with how to conduct the war itself and the prospects for a satisfactory outcome. It is there that analogies with Iraq and Afghanistan, for example, are often quite shallow.

 

NORWEGIAN SHOOTER

10:02 PM ET

September 23, 2009

Germany and 'Nam

What are the expansionist military aggressions (besides our own) since WWII? Russia invades Afghanistan and Iraq in Iran and Kuwait. That's all I've got. The fact is that most wars since WWII have not been fought between two countries, so EMA just doesn't apply.

I threw in "weak ideological premises" as a dig. The Vietnam analogy is not all encompassing, but rather focuses on when (and perhaps whether) to enter a war - like the Munich analogy.

 

SJH71

1:25 PM ET

September 24, 2009

This is the point. Both

This is the point. Both analogies are used primarily to determine when or whether to get involved in a military conflict. The Munich example always says: get involved early because it will be worse later on. The Vietnam example always says: don't get involved because it's a quagmire. "Conservatives"/right employ the first as a reflexive "yes," and "liberals"/left as a reflexive "no." Neither one need be relevant to what's really being decided, and the use of either one generally indicates a lack of thought about the issue. Therefore, both are equally stupid. And I hear people using the Vietnam analogy at least as much as Munich. Having a pet peeve about one but not the other is just an indication of bias since neither is inherently more pertinent.

 

JAIBRIOLQOXII

12:23 AM ET

September 24, 2009

Should There Ever Have Been a Czechoslovakia?

Part of the problem of historical discussions in the USA is the almost total lack of historical knowledge or understanding among Americans.

WWII came about to a large extent because of the vindictiveness of the victors in WW1.

Austria-Hungary served two purposes.

1. As a multinational empire, it created a modus vivendi for a very diverse population to live together in a supra-national state when the alternative of ethnonational states guaranteed decades of bloodshed.

[It is worth noting that even after the ethnic cleansing of the Bohemian German population, Czechoslovakia still did not make sense and split into the Czech Republic and Slovakia.]

2. Austria-Hungary was a block on Pan-Germanist goals. Once Austria-Hungary was dismantled, pan-Germanism was revitalized especially after the German Empire had been stripped of territories on its Eastern and Western borders that most German citizens viewed as part of core German State.

In addition, the majority of the population of Danzig, the Danzig corridor, and the Sudetenland almost certainly wanted union with Germany.

Only with understanding of this context can one possibly have a rational discussion of Munich.

As I have pointed out elsewhere, not only is there much truth in Pat Buchanan's claim that WW2 was a useless conflagration ([wvns] Did Hitler Want War?), but in order to have a realistic or realist discussion of foreign policy today, we Americans have to have an open and painful discussion that

a) addresses why Munich is not debated honestly in the USA and

b) investigates Jewish Zionist mendacity on this topic in specific.

Continued US support for Israel is completely incompatible with a realist foreign policy (as the Israel Lobby understands completely -- hence the continued attacks on Walt&Mearsheimer), and the US maintains an alliance with the racist murderous genocidal Zionist state purely as a result of domestic political considerations that would vanish rapidly if Americans had a genuine understanding of historic Jewish political economy in Europe and N. America.

In other words,

  1. patriotic Americans owe Jews nothing,
  2. the Jewish-Zionist imperial system, whose public face is the Israel Lobby, has defrauded the USA of at least $6-8 trillion,
  3. Jewish-Zionists will continue their ongoing criminal program of marginalizing US citizens of Arab and Muslim heritage in parallel with the ongoing Jewish-Zionist genociding of the native Palestinian population, and
  4. the USA simply won't have a rational foreign policy with regard Iran, Israel, the Arab world, and the Muslim world,

until the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum is demolished and contra-factual Jewish-Zionist mythography about the Holocaust is purged from American discourse.

If an American really wants to understand the current US foreign policy disaster, he should start with The Holocaust in American Life by Peter Novick and Selling the Holocaust by Tim Cole.

 

DAVE123

5:35 PM ET

September 21, 2009

Reposted from previous thread

Reposted from previous thread before this thread was created.

I just wanted to thank Professor Walt for endorsing J Street in his Washington Post op/ed. Combined with his broken record blaming everything on Israel, his AIPAC conspiracy theories, and his ignoring Hamas' utter rejection of peace, if Israel supporters were on the fence about J Street, the Walt endorsement will turn many away. Thanks again Professor Walt; especially when today Hamas AGAIN reiterated its total rejection of ANY peace agreement with Israel.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0920/p06s01-wome.html

By the way J Street shot itself in the foot again by inviting Israel hater and Hamas supporter Salam al-Marayati to its next conference.
http://www.investigativeproject.org/profile/114
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=8&x_nameinnews=90&x_article=264

Why is Benjamin Netanyahu stiffing Obama and Mitchell.

For the same reason Abbas hasn't droped the right of return for millions of Palestinians (I wonder why Walt never sees that demand as an obstacle to peace). Because you don't give up things you must compromise before you start neotiations.

 

DAVID IN DC

5:36 PM ET

September 21, 2009

Jeff Goldberg of the Atlantic agrees

J Street would be better off with Osama Bin Laden's endorsement than it would with Stephen Walt's. As best as I can tell, the bulk of J Street's backers are people who ardently support the creation of a Palestinian state and don't very much like Benjamin Netanyahu, but they are also people who don't like grubby Jew-baiters like Stephen Walt.

http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/

Although I think calling Walt 'grubby' is kind of harsh.

 

NORWEGIAN SHOOTER

9:47 PM ET

September 21, 2009

Kind of harsh?

What about Jew-baiters? Is it less harsh than "grubby" or do you just believe it to be true?

 

MDREW

1:21 AM ET

September 22, 2009

Because

obviously we can count on whatever Jeff Goldberg has to say about Stephen Walt to be a perfectly balanced, fair assessment and representation of Professor Walt's arguments.

 

MDREW

1:24 AM ET

September 22, 2009

...No, rather for a fair assessment of Professor Walt's views

...one must turn to FP's own David Rothkopf.

 

DAVID IN DC

12:02 PM ET

September 22, 2009

Conversely

"obviously we can count on whatever Walt has to say about Israel to be a perfectly balanced, fair assessment and representation of the facts."

Do you buy that as a valid argument, MDrew?

Neither do I.

From a subsequent post of yours:

"Israel supporters'" eagerness to trash J-Street via a bank shot off of Professor Walt simply betrays their unwillingness to deal in the real world and their total lack of interest in a two-state solution.

You know, it is possible people may have different opinions than you and just as possible that they may look at the same set of facts and draw different conclusions. And this may even be true of people who, gasp, want to trash J-Street (presumably because they disagree with them and want to discredit them, a tactic also employed liberally by our host towards those he disagrees with).

And just because they do, doesn't mean they are "unwilling to deal in the real world" or that they show a "lack of interest in a two state solution". Obviously, this is an ad hominem attack (counting the Rothkopf comment, a perfect three in three posts!), and these are becoming all to common on this blog, from the blog author and commenters on both sides.

I actually disagree with the original thesis. My reasoning is that only a minority of people who would gravitate towards J-Street are even aware of who Walt is, and of those only a minority would be swayed by what Walt thinks of the group. I'm not sure I make a more convincing case than you, "because Jeff Goldberg said it" is a pretty devastating argument, but I'll throw it out there anyway :-).

 

MDREW

4:25 AM ET

September 23, 2009

"whatever Walt has to say about Israel to be perfectly balanced"

I've never said that we should necessarily think that the case. But he's way closer to balanced on the I/P question than Rothkopf and Goldberg are on Walt.

 

MDREW

2:50 AM ET

September 23, 2009

Ad hominems in this discussion? Shocked!

To engage in ad hominem argumentation within the I/P discussion is simply to be engaged in it. If some people can be called grubby Jew-baiters, then others can be accused of not being interested in dealing in the real world (which, if it is an ad hominem, is only such by the barest of margins; it is an absolutely de rigeur assertion to make in any discussion surrounding real-world negotiations of any kind.)

On the other hand, it is possible to be absurdly condescending without actually engaging in ad hominem arguments, as here:

You know, it is possible people may have different opinions than you and just as possible that they may look at the same set of facts and draw different conclusions.

Believe it or not, I actually do know that people have differing opinions. That doesn't require me (or you) to preface every view with the words "I might be wrong, but..."

 

DAVID IN DC

12:14 PM ET

September 23, 2009

Believe it or not, I actually

Believe it or not, I actually do know that people have differing opinions. That doesn't require me (or you) to preface every view with the words "I might be wrong, but..."

Of course. Obviously I was commenting on the way you impugned certain views/motives on those that held differing opinions, not the amount of certitude with which you delivered yours.

To engage in ad hominem argumentation within the I/P discussion is simply to be engaged in it. If some people can be called grubby Jew-baiters, then others can be accused of not being interested in dealing in the real world...

It may be trite, but it doesn't make it any less true -- two wrongs don't make a right. You do what you have to, but just because you stoop to that behavior doesn't mean everyone else in the discussion does.

But he's [Walt is] way closer to balanced on the I/P question than Rothkopf and Goldberg are on Walt.

That is your opinion. I see them differing only in tone, not balance.

 

NORWEGIAN SHOOTER

10:07 PM ET

September 21, 2009

J Street is about defining "Israel supporters"

J Street has shown that "Israel supporters" can no longer be assumed to apply only to the Israel-right-or-wrong crowd. What does that phrase mean to you?

 

MDREW

1:25 AM ET

September 22, 2009

I'm glad the Walt-JStreet

I'm glad the Walt-JStreet Bank Shot is so convincingly devastating to J-Street for "Israel Supporters." J-Street's positioning on the conflict merely represents the minimum amount of realism that is necessary on the Israeli side for there to be a chance at any longlastting two-state solution -- nothing more, nothing less. "Israel supporters'" eagerness to trash J-Street via a bank shot off of Professor Walt simply betrays their unwillingness to deal in the real world and their total lack of interest in a two-state solution. "Israel supporters" in this formulation, of course, refers only to a very particular segment of that actually much more diverse group.

 

DAVID IN DC

5:14 PM ET

September 21, 2009

Comments about the op-ed

Why is Netanyahu defying Obama so openly?

Because he can. Obama's ham-handed handling of things has put the Israeli public squarely behind Netanyahu. Arguably, Netanyahu's previous tenure as PM was cut short due to conflict with Clinton. Obama could have played it much better, getting the Israeli public behind him and having them put pressure on Netanyahu.

If tangible progress toward a viable Palestinian state does not happen soon, however, Abbas and other moderate Palestinians will only be weakened and radical groups such as Hamas only strengthened.

Progress certainly won't happen without negotiations, and it isn't the Israelis who are refusing to negotiate, it is the Palestinians. One can only wonder how it is playing to an Obama who has staked a lot of capital on this, and who is now watching the Palestinians, with their refusal to negotiate, behave a lot like his predecessor. A predecessor whose methods Obama staunchly repudiated during the campaign and his Presidency.

Living up to the famous adage that "the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity", Abbas is squandering a moment in which the US President is committed to creating Palestinian state in the short term.

 

COURTNEYME109

7:40 PM ET

September 21, 2009

Frenemies

Maybe BiBi realizes Little Satan should act like destabilizing nation states like Syria, Iran or NoKo to get the love. So far - from Taiwan, SoKo, Eastern Europa to Little Satan - being one of 44's allies carries only risk.

 

KENNETH SORENSEN

6:29 PM ET

September 21, 2009

The h-event is being used to strenghten the relationship

Quote:I thought about posting something about Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's most recent fit of Holocaust denial, but Juan Cole said everything

You Americans really ought to forget everything that has got to do with socalled holocaust.* Typically of you Americans you got to know the term from a television series. Churchill, Eisenhower and De Gaulle have between them written tens of thousands of pages about WW2 without ever mentioning the word. You Americans are smart, and Walt is one of your finest. Surely you have grasped why some people want you to pay disproportionate homage to this event, which affected only a small part of all those killed in WW2. [The reality is, of course, that it is always a perilous situation to be a minority in a dictatorship, and being disliked by that dictatorship. And there is very little outside forces can do about it] It is used to generate sympathy towards Israel, and to lend moral justifications to Israels actions, and to lessen the crimes that Israel has committed towards the indigenous population of Palestine. You Americans learned the term in the 70'ties, at the same time as your help [in the form of gifts, not loans (See Mearsheimer & Walt: The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy)] increased 6 times following the October War, and Israel from 1976 onwards became the biggest recipient of US foreign aid (ie. gifts). Actually Mearsheimer and Walt quotes a scholar, who says the relationsship from then on got the character of an alliance. And in this alliance this h-event has got a role of....a thing that can keep the two together and alligned. When the Cold war ended, Israel felt it needed a new glue for the relationsship, and it chose radical Islam - and by implication Iran - as the new enemy. But it has made sure that the h-event still features prominently by directing education programmes [Mind you, to a people that have zero guilt in the persecution of Jews in Europe], and building museums in the very Capital of the free world.

_____________________

Ad.* )

When the Iranian President speaks on the subject it should be seen as a Middle Eastern protest, that racism in Europe has led to a country that spurs racism on natives of the region. The Arbas and the Iranians have zero to do with the h-event, and it is written nowhere that they should show any particular respect to it. Why should they? To them other more recent events in their area looms far larger.

 

DAVE123

6:38 PM ET

September 21, 2009

This is your audience

This is your audience Professor Walt not liberal Jews on the fence about J Street.

 

KERPIN

4:06 PM ET

September 25, 2009

Tell me who your friends are, and I'll know who you are

As Dave123 says, Kenneth Sorensen is a perfect example of the kinds of admirers Walt attracts. Not exactly something to be proud of.

 

COURTNEYME109

7:42 PM ET

September 21, 2009

The WaPo Bit was fun!

Haven't laughed so hard since the conclusion of "Taming American Power"

 

Stephen M. Walt is the Robert and Renée Belfer professor of international relations at Harvard University.

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