Monday, December 21, 2009 - 9:38 PM

I'm no great fan of Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, but you gotta admit his candor is refreshing. From last week, in the Jerusalem Post:
Israel is willing to sit down for talks with the Palestinians, but with no preconditions or further gestures, Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman said on Thursday evening, stressing that the most recent overture was a tactical and temporary move.
In practice, we have not been building for a year and a half, so why pretend," he said in an address at the Ariel University Center. "Like in soccer, you make tactical moves sometimes. It is clear to everyone that in ten months, we will be building again full force; anyone who understands anything knows this. . . ." The foreign minister proceeded to expound on the need to downplay the conflict with the Palestinians, which "must not be a central topic, neither [in Israel] nor [in the international arena]. Not everyone in the world is troubled by this problem, and our task is to diminish it, and not make it a central topic."
JONATHAN NACKSTRAND/AFP/Getty Images
"Not everyone in the world is troubled by this problem, and our task is to diminish it, and not make it a central topic."
No kidding. Don't people understand that this is precisely what the Israelis have been doing for the past year? By mitigating the conflict, the mainstream media in the United States and elsewhere will neglect to cover the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with full force; thereby playing right into the hands of the Israeli Government. If the press is reluctant to expose Israeli actions towards the Palestinians- actions that include the expansion of settlements on occupied land- what initiative does the international community have in solving the dispute? With the Israeli-Palestinian story tamed in the newspapers and on television screens, people around the globe will eventually forget about the problem. In fact, without press coverage, it is hard to believe that world leaders would pressure the Israelis to compromise. They simply have no incentive to do so.
Congratulations to Lieberman for being so sincere. The same cannot be said for P.M. Netanyahu or his Likud Party. But this sincerity has come with a price. The true nature of Israel's attitude has now been publicized; attitudes that are nothing short of arrogant and dispassionate.
http://depetris.wordpress.com
This is America's fault -- why do we keep giving chocolate to "mini-me" when mini-me is pooping all over us?
Stop funding these militant fascist Apartheid fanatcis, and it will take care of >80% of our terrorism problem.
You think calling Likudniks fascist is too much, well take a look where Nazism is raising its head -- quite ironic: (from CNN)
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/12/21/israel.organs/index.html
And of course any post my me would be incomplete without linking to my favourite youtube video of my favourite UK member of Parliament:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8
Long live Sir Gerald Kaufman!
The more important story is...
The entire Israeli government has been clear that they chose this settlement freeze reluctantly. That's because its painful and frustrating. But peace is about making painful and frustrating compromises.
The Netanyahu government has gone further than any recent Israeli administration in limiting Israel's activity in the occupied territories. It is being widely resisted by extremist segments of the Israeli population, and even peace-minded Israelis are questioning why the government is making concessions without receiving anything in return.
Which leads to the much more important question-- why haven't the Palestinians come to the table to resume talks?
Obama wants talks, Netanyahu wants talks. Israel has filled every necessary "precondition" for talks that even it did not want to fill. Arguably, this would be the biggest opportunity for a peace deal which creates a Palestinian state at least since 2000.
Palestinians cannot afford to pass this opportunity up.
And derisive posts like this-- which mock the painful concessions Israelis are preparing themselves to make-- do not help.
You cannot be serious. Israel has made painstaking compromises for the Palestinians? What exactly are these compromises that you are referring to? P.M. Netanyahu has done nothing to diminish the grievances of the Palestinians, let alone address the numerous issues in any significant way. So the Israelis removed a few hundred roadblocks in the West Bank...so what! The Israelis should have done this a long time ago; it is not exactly a secret that the Palestinians view the West Bank as a substantial portion of their own independent state.
And I believe Aeriel Sharon did a heck of a lot more than this Israeli administration with respect to the occupied territories. It was Sharon that forced Israeli settlers to completely evacuate the Gaza Strip and relocate their families to Israeli proper. Surely this move is more effective than freezing settlement construction for a short 10 month period.
As for why the Palestinians are not joining the peace talks, I suspect that this has something to do with Israel's stance on settlements in general. The Palestinians want Netanyahu to stop expanding into the West Bank indefinitely, not just for a few months. Do you blame them? This is the equivalent of appeasing a neighbor that illegally builds on your property.
This is anything but a derisive post. This is reality. Lieberman's comments are a microcosm to Israel's position.
I ENCOURAGE EVERYONE TO TAKE A LOOK AT MY BLOG FOR MORE!!! http://depetris.wordpress.com
"And I believe Aeriel Sharon did a heck of a lot more than this Israeli administration with respect to the occupied territories. It was Sharon that forced Israeli settlers to completely evacuate the Gaza Strip and relocate their families to Israeli proper. Surely this move is more effective than freezing settlement construction for a short 10 month period."
It took Sharon years before he was in a position politically to pull this off. I agree with you that Netanyahu needs to do a lot more if he's serious about the peace process, but Netanyahu (who also does not have the military credibility that Sharon or Rabin had) is not in the same situation. It took him 8 months and a lot of posturing just to do this much, and he'll still have to use IDF force to carry it out.
"As for why the Palestinians are not joining the peace talks, I suspect that this has something to do with Israel's stance on settlements in general. The Palestinians want Netanyahu to stop expanding into the West Bank indefinitely, not just for a few months. Do you blame them? This is the equivalent of appeasing a neighbor that illegally builds on your property."
As for what the Palestinians want, of which your assessment is reasonable, the division in leadership must be pointed out. Generally this is true, but the PA and Hamas are split. While Abbas is generally more willing to negotiate (and accept the reality of a Jewish state for the time being), he risks a backlash in the ongoing struggle with Hamas if he is seen as making too many concessions. While he may have insisted on complete settlement freezes as a precondition for negotiations regardless of that, his political obstacles need to be acknolwedged as well.
To PFNOVAK
I understand that the Palestinians have a lot of work to do. It is often difficult to establish a peace process if one side of the debate is split between different factions. Certainly, with Hamas controlling the Gaza Strip and Fatah securing the West Bank, the two parties will probably compete against one another for the support of the Palestinian electorate; competition that runs the risk of bloodshed and intra-Palestinian fighting.
But we must remember that Mahmoud Abbas has not really taken the Hamas leadership seriously. It is hard to say for sure, but it appears that Abbas never truly believed that Hamas was willing to enter a formal dialogue with the Israelis. After all, while the Hamas Movement has been pragmatic since its takeover of the Gaza Strip in 2007, its main slogan is still resistance against Israel in all its forms. With Hamas and Fatah differing on so many issues, it is inconceivable that a national unity government could be formed in the near future.
While I recognize that Abbas may need to fight for his political survival in his own party, I am not so sure that he is worried about Hamas at this point. The Gaza Strip is one of the most improvised areas in the world, and the West Bank- under his leadership- has been growing at a pretty significant rate. The security situation in the West Bank is also impressive...a far cry from the violence of the Gaza Strip.
Abbas' popularity is on the rise, not on the decline. If his approval ratings were decreasing, then negotiations with Hamas may be more realistic.
http://depetris.wordpress.com
It's a matter of record that Abbas has 'negotiated' with the Israeli's for 18 years with seven Israeli governments. Enough is enough.
In which time the settlements and their associated infrastructure grew exponentially. What do you suggest, that Abbas sit down for another 18 years of negotiation while Israel continues it's apartheid rampage? He has wised up to the problems of his previous approach. More power to him.
While he declines negotiations the world is now seeing the it's the Palestinians that were the problem as defined by the Israeli's but the Israeli's themselve.
So Bibi wants to negotiate. Negotiate what? A paper state with it's own flag. The Israeli's have been creating red herrings for decades to delay peace so they could steal land and resources and expand their settlementsnow but now, now that Bibi wants to negotiate then everyone has to what? Hop to it?
Please. The entire world now sees Israel as the problem it always was. A complete a total settlement freeze is part of the roadmap. All illegal settlers behind the '67 line in Israel or stay and be part of Palestine.
Israel continues to undermine the very credibility to the Middle East peace process, making a mockery of existing agreements and sabotaging all prospects for a return to genuine negotiations.
The real thing that threatens Israel’s legitimacy is the way it behaves and maintains the occupation. That is the issue.
Israel will never stop constructing houses on Palestinian land until they are totally isolated by the entire world community, the US stops providing them with money and military assistance and the UN allows the Palestinians to unilaterally declare and the World recognizes a Palestinian state.
Israel can attack Lebanon, Syria, Gaza and anyone else that doesn;t agree with their failed policies. They threaten anyone who opposes them with military action. Yet, they cannot get their illegal settlers behind the green line and into Israel and out of Palestine and settle for peace?
If Israel wanted 'peace', they would stop their apartheid rampage, leave Palestine, and move their terrorist settlers to the Negev to be 'pioneers'.
Palestinian National Aspirations; Slip Sliding Away
Yes, Lieberman is right; does anyone care about the plight of the Palestinians any more?
Well, the Muslim world does (kind-of). The governments of many Muslim nations (especially the Arab ones) pay lip service to the Palestinians but never actually raise a finger to do anything concrete to help them. Most of what they do is rail at the Israelis to distract their own citizens from the dismal government the regimes provide to their own people.
"Old-Europe" cares; that is the British, French, Spanish and Scandinavians do. The Italians not so much and the Germans are beholden to the Israelis for murdering six million of their co-religionists so despite their inclinations, the German support for Palestinian aspirations will never be more than rhetorical.
"New Europe" on the other hand couldn't care less about the Palestinians. The Czechs, Slovaks, Poles, and Hungarians are all allied with Israel and indifferent to Palestinian aspirations. Anyone bother to follow what the Serbs think of the Palestinians or the Croats? What about the Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians; do any of these newly free Europeans have any sympathy for Palestinian national dreams? Nope.
And speaking about the former Soviet Republics, exactly how much do the Russians care about whether Israel continues to build settlements? Last time Avigdor Lieberman was in Russia this is what Putin had to say about him,
“It is gratifying to realize that people who know more than hearsay about this country are appointed to such high posts in Israel,” (New York Times, June 13, 2009, “Israel’s Foreign Minister Cozies Up to Moscow, Clifford J. Levy).
What about the budding new superpowers, China and India? Do the Chinese have any sympathy for the Palestinians or antipathy to Israel's settlement policy? Not a bit. When China sees Palestinians complaining, they think of Tibetans complaining. When China sees restive Muslims in Palestine they think about their restive Uighurs in Xinjiang.
As for the Indians; they have increasingly close ties not only to the IDF but also to the Mossad. Military cooperation between India and Israel is increasingly rapidly. In fact, India recently allowed Israel to test fire a long range missile capable of carrying nuclear war heads off its coast in the Indian Ocean. As for the Indian's sympathies in the Israel-Palestine dispute, who do they sympathize more with; the rapidly developing and technologically sophisticated Israelis or Palestinian groups like Hamas who are so reminiscent of the Muslim terrorist groups that threaten India?
The idea of increasing isolation of Israel is a myth that only the gullible fall for. It's the Palestinians who are more isolated than ever. In fact, the only powerful player in the world who actually cares about their plight is Barack Obama. If the Palestinians don't make a deal on Obama's watch their national aspirations are probably finished. If they don't surrender to reality, self-contained "Bantustans" is the best they will ever get and more likely their current ambiguous status will continue for another generation or two.
The Israeli Foreign Minister is right, Palestinian prospects look bleaker every day. And all the talk about Israel’s settlements is limited to newspapers in the Arab world, the United States and a few countries in Europe. Yes, international forums with a lot of representation from Muslim Governments can criticize Israel; in reality this criticism is inconsequential.
Friends of the Palestinians would be wise to help them acquiesce to this reality before it’s too late for them.
There’s one thing Lieberman forgot to mention. Nine months from now when the settlement freeze is up, does anyone think Obama will be pressuring Israel to extend it? The settlement freeze expires in September, 2010.
How close is that to the U.S. mid term elections?
Judging from the statement of Mr. Liebernan, Mr. Ms. wigwag, Israel still thinks that the Palestinian question still commands international attention, hence his comment that, Israel's task is to try to diminish this issue's command on the international community's attention.
When he speaks about settlements, evidently Mr. lieberman's concern is the local audience, becaue everyone in the international community believes that Israel will return to building settlements, indeed, many believe that it hasn't stopped in any case. However, one agrees that Plaestinian national aspirations are slip sliding away, especially that both Hamas and the PNA present themselves to the Palestinian people, as the negation of each other, therefore, since when two negations can command a nation let alone form one. So long as both parties remain as such for each other, the detractors of the Palestinian national aspirations, will have enough excuses; legitimate if I may add, of not only driving the Palestinian question out of the conciousness of the international community, but also, of shifting the need for Israeli occupation, on the shoulders of the Palestinians themselves.
One still believes that the future of the west bank is in confederal arrangement with Jordan, and Gaza in an administrative arrangement with Egypt.
khairi janbek.paris/france
From Uri Avnery's latest column
In all the long Oslo speech, Obama devoted 16 whole words to us: “We see it in Middle East, as the conflict between Arabs and Jews seems to harden.”
Well, first of all, it is not a conflict between Arabs and Jews. It is between Palestinians and Israelis. That is an important difference: when one wants to solve a problem, one must first have a clear picture of it.
More importantly: This is the remark of a bystander. A viewer sitting in his armchair and looking at the TV screen. A theater critic reviewing a performance. Should the President of the United States look at the conflict like this?
If the conflict is indeed hardening, the US, and Obama personally, must carry much of the blame. His folding up on the settlement issue and his total surrender to the pro-Israel lobby in the US has encouraged our government to believe that it can do anything it likes.
The New Intifada : This Time It's Palestinian vs. Palestinian
It's always so interesting to see just what Professor Walt thinks is worth writing about. In this post, he writes about an article he read about Foreign Minister Lieberman in last weeks Jerusalem Post.
So far we haven't seen anything from the Professor about an interesting little article in today's Jerusalem Post. In case he hasn't seen it, here's what the Jerusalem Post is reporting on today; apparently Fatah has ordered a new intifada to be directed against Hamas and Hamas has retaliated by ordering a new intifada against the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank.
The article is entitled "Fatah Cracks Down on Hamas Officials" and it is authored by Khaled Abu Toameh. Here are the relevant quotes:
*As the "forum of seven" Israeli cabinet ministers continued their deliberations in Jerusalem about the release of prisoners whom Hamas was demanding in return for St.-Sgt. Gilad Schalit, Azzam al-Ahmed, a Fatah official and close aide to PA President Mahmoud Abbas, called for an "intifada" against the Islamist movement in Gaza.*
Not to be out done, the Jerusalem Post reports that this is how Hamas responded,
*Hamas responded by calling for an "intifada" against the PA in the West Bank. Yahya Musa, a top Hamas official in the Gaza Strip, urged Palestinians to launch a popular intifada against the PA because of the suffering of the Palestinians in the West Bank as a result of the actions of its security forces that operate under the supervision of the CIA.*
It's really quite interesting how enthusiastic Professor Walt is to enlighten his loyal readers about Israel’s settlement policies while at the same time he's so reticent to comment about the Palestinian Civil War.
It's hard to know how he (or anyone else) expects Israel to negotiate a peace deal with the two main Palestinian political parties who hate each other almost as much as they hate the Israelis.
Given the dismal state of the Palestinian political landscape why should the Israelis believe that a new Palestinian nation on their door step will be any more cohesive or peaceful than Somalia?
Some words of wisdom from Professor Walt about this would be far more edifying than the tired old sarcastic comments about Israel and the settlements.
Wigwag wrote:
"It's hard to know how [Walt] (or anyone else) expects Israel to negotiate a peace deal with the two main Palestinian political parties who hate each other almost as much as they hate the Israelis."
Oh c'mon Wigwag, in the first place it could be observed that Israel itself aided the rise of Hamas originally with the intended purpose of fragmenting the support of Fatah.
In the second it might be observed that there seems to be a much newer and thus far more interesting fracture going on in the Israeli ranks of all places. I.e., between the mainstream—now meaning the gov't of Netanyahu and Lieberman who are openly saying that this settlement freeze means nothing—and the settlers who are using force to prevent even this and who amazingly and ominously enough seem to have entire segments of the IDF willing to disobey any orders they feel are wrong. (Now *there's* a nascent civil war that's really news, even if one can hardly see it covered.)
And in the third it might be asked how the Palestinians expect Israel to negotiate a peace deal when it's obvious (from comments as readily available as those Walt quoted from Lieberman) that the only peace deal that Israel is interested in is one in the abstract future after they've stolen every square inch of Palestinian land they want and are only left with the problem of how to expel the arabs left within their midst.
Besides all that while I don't think you are consciously playing out Lieberman's script of trying to get everyone to forget the Palestinians it's a funny thing: The Israelis are constantly screaming to the world about all the alleged, imminent, existential crises and new Holocaust's they face at every turn, but then when people *do* naturally pay attention to them but just don't see the issues involved in the absolutely identical way that Israel would like they are suddenly said to be suspiciously "obsessed" with the country by way of intimating that they are anti-semites.
Nice bit of jujitsu, but getting pretty obvious by now.
The only solution durable in the long term is Israels closure
This will solve everything. It really can be done. You may say it's extraordinary to shut a country down , but its very inception was extraordinary. An extraordinary problem usually requires an extraordinary solution.
It should be done by imposing sanctions and taxes on it, until it agrees to hold a referendum in all the land between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean, where every person over 18 shall be asked how he thinks this land should be governed.
Presumably very many Jews will leave up to and immediately after such a referendum, and that would be a good thing, and in itself insure that the desired Arab majority will happen sooner. An international force shall make sure that Israel is closed down in an orderly fashion, and that no harm is done to the departing Jews, and The United States should grant asylum to the Jews, living up to its major responsibility that Israel came into being in the first place. At the same time this force will see to that no infrastructure is destroyed upon departure, because such behavior is unacceptable in the civilized world, and because the infrastructure will serve as compensation to the Palestinians for their forceful expulsion in 1948 and 1967.
Then the world will have got rid of the greatest security peril in all of human history, with the most costly and detrimental effects. World stability is more important than the self-determination of a minority.
So your solution to an ethnic conflict is kicking everyone out of a certain region? How'd that work out in India and Pakistan? Did that improve global stability? No, the India-Pakistan conflict is a SIGNIFICANTLY greater security risk than anything involving Israel and Palestine. Remember all the people who said that African-Americans should all be deported back to Liberia? How seriously is that taken these days?
Also, I'd like to know the basis of your claim that the US has a "major responsibility that Israel came into being in the first place". It was the British who produced the Balfour Declaration, expressing support for the eventual creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine, while the territory was under British jurisdiction. It was the Germans, as well as their accomplices across Europe in world war II who uprooted the Jewish population, which led to the refugee crisis after the war, and the British who failed to defend the borders in keeping with their policy of preventing Jewish emigration to Palestine. Subsequently, there was a UN partition of Palestine. Yes the US voted for it, but so did the majority of countries in the world including the USSR, which is why it passed. During the '48 war, the majority of Israeli arms were supplied by Czechoslovakia, not the US. It was not for a long time that the US became the supporter of Israel that it is today. Didn't the US force Israel to back down in the Suez war of 1956?
This makes a comment I made recently on this blog particularly apropos. It also makes one wonder: Did Walt really believe anything else was going to happen? This freeze is an attempt to get negotiations started, not a change in Israel's policy. That was pretty obvious to me, but then again, I'm no "realist" ;-).
It has always seemed to me that it would be best for the Palestinians if they negotiated borders sooner rather than later, thereby reserving the land that is to be theirs as theirs.
As a "realist", you should realize the obvious - Israel will keep building and all of the one-state predictions won't come true because Israel will never allow it. The Palestinians will eventually be squeezed into some kind of federation with Jordan on a fraction of the land they could have gotten at Annapolis.
The Palestinian strategy of eschewing negotiations in the hope that the world will put pressure on Israel to unilaterally concede what should be negotiated is a big gamble and one which they will likely lose.
Yes, black south africans should have negotiated with the apartheid whites also.
And Polish jews should have negotiated with the Nazis to hang on to their ghetto.
No, in both cases, the world community woke up and took things into their hands.
It will happen with Israel also ---> Whether or not Israel "allows" it.
Sit back and watch.
The Mideast Peace Deal You haven't Heard About.
This is actually the title of the paper written by Steven J. Rosen for the Middle East Forum, in which he claims that, Mr. Netanyahu has already agreed unofficially, with Mr. george Mitchell on the terms of reference for final status negotiations with the Palestinian Authority.
What remains now, it seems for Mr. Mitchell to bring Mr. Abbas back to the table of negotiations.
khairi janbek.paris/france
Stephen M. Walt is the Robert and Renée Belfer professor of international relations at Harvard University.
Read More
(17)
HIDE COMMENTS LOGIN OR REGISTER REPORT ABUSE