Apparently

The innocent civilians killed and the millions of refugees as a direct result of this war isn't disastrous enough for you. I mean, they were Muslims so they don't count correct?

No matter the end result, the war was a disaster, it was a disaster before it started because it was a war based on lies. Try to let that one sink in.

SMCI: I think you might not be seeing what a jagged the path the road to hostilities might take, and also how the jaggedness of that path might be counted on by some.

That is yes, I think you're absolutely right that for right now for Obama to just up and announce bombing, nope, out of the question, ain't gonna happen.

But ... you push for hostilities, and so Obama does the expected and does something lesser to appease you. Say, up the number of ships in the Gulf there. (As was just done.) Or goes for sanctions. Or increases the support of those MEK guys, and/or whatever. And then, assuming even that some easily envisioned accident or weirdness doesn't happen (like ... one of our ships hits a mine or gets attacked by some zealots or "maybe" attacked at night a la the Gulf of Tonkin incident), and Iran does the totally expected too and responds, and maybe even just this the back and forth without any accident or weirdness leads to oil going to $200 a barrel or whatever, and suddenly it's not a matter of Obama "initiat[ing] armed conflict" but it's him essentially being *pulled* into same.

If I wanted the U.S. at war with Iran I wouldn't give up. At least because I then probably get those appeasing measures. And not least because it also at a minimum makes war more ... imaginable, so that if as is likely that appeasement provokes the other side, or something else fortuitous happens, hey, the imagining of a war has already been done and considered. It's just the natural next step it seems. Of *course* we should have *already* went to war just as I said, I could then cry....

Sure wish the Wall Street Journal and others had the basic forthrightness to identify the nationality(s) of those writing for it. If I'm not mistaken Stephens is a citizen of Israel, or at least a joint Israeli-American. Not even arguable that it isn't potentially important, no wonder nobody trusts the main-stream media anymore.

Let me revise my opinion.

Barring any incriminating conspiracy compelling this President to act against a framed Iran, I don't think he has the inclination to go to war.

Other than that, jostling naval deployments here and there aren't really game-changing strategies. The US has been in the Gulf and Arabian Sea for decades.

What I think there's more to here, and no one seems to be considering (even hypothetically), is that the Arab States actually WANT Iran to weaponize its capabilities. This provides them with the necessary cover to follow suit without sanctions. I mean has anyone thought that there may be more to the abstentions and 'nay' votes on this issue in the Security Council by the Arab delegates, than meets the eye? Maybe its not just a PR tactic to avoid criticism back home?

Nuclear deterrents may just be the most stabilizing factor in this region.

If you don't like the Professor's talking about Israel, or think that it's opportunistic, maybe you shouldn't contribute to them by commenting so relentlessly.

Of the posts quoted above, you yourself commented on the Israel-related ones no less than 33 times.

Maybe the good Professor just loves to read your lengthy and bigoted anti-Muslim tropes?

It should be flattering.

C'mon Sababa, you're being captious: What's the clear overall truth? Nobody can really deny that for a person in Walt's position taking on the Israeli lobby as he did in his book and as he does here is a forthright and even brave thing in terms of his career and even personal relations, period.

Beyond that, what the hell does he care how many people read this blog? And if in response to his comments about Israel he had a paucity of responses, someone would be smirking that he was a obsessive nutball loser.

And yet you say *he's* being the mere opportunist....

Well, Israel is my country (as well as U.S.). Off course I will be sensitive to one sided and cleverly disguised posts blaming Israel, or what he calls "Israeli Lobby", for US's conflict with Arab states. U.S.A is a global supper power all throughout the world. It has its own political and economical interest in the region - seperate from its security interest shared with Israel.

I would respect the prof's blog much more, had he equally balanced it with critisim of Hamas, and the mullahs (not the people) in Iran, as real distabalizing factiors in the region.

It happens such that U.S. and Israel share mutual values - which make my job the more easier.

sometime people don't post because what they wanted to say was already stated by someone else

SABABA03

" [...] its security interest shared with Israel. [...] It happens such that U.S. and Israel share mutual values - which make my job the more easier. "

Can you elaborate on what are the security interest the US share with Israel?

Also, what are mutual values that you are referring to?

You asked: "Also, what are mutual values that you are referring to?".

Here is an essay which myself put together few years ago, to answer questions like yours. It was in response to Prof's Walt & Mersheimer Book "The Israeli Lobby".

U.S. SUPPORT OF ISRAEL:
Much of criticism to which Arabs / Muslims and their sympathizers, such as Profs. John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt, it involves the close U.S.-Israeli relationship. With vociferous contentions these groups question United State's unwavering support of Israel, to what they term “The Israeli Lobby” and its purported “insidious affect” on U.S.'s own foreign affairs . Few wonder why Israel, with no oil, few natural resources, and little strategic value, vis-a-vis other Arab countries in Middle East and Gulf region, it enjoys the support of United State. Here are few reasons why.

NATIONAL: State of Israel was founded on 15 May 1948, as result of UN Resolution 181. Of those 57 Islamic and Arab countries, only four have formally recognized this Jewish state.
Few leaders throughout the Islamic world, still perceive and perpetuate false notions that, Israel was created through conspiracy by western “Crusaders” to “implant the Zionist infidels in the heart of Arab land” and “Jews Rule the World by proxy”. A theory of which U.S. rejects as utter nonsense.

ISRAEL'S SECURITY: Ever since its foundation, and to date, this nation of only 7.5 Million inhabitants, consisting of Jews, Christian and Muslim citizens, Israel has been facing constant threat to its very existence from 350+ Million Arabs and fundamentalist Muslims (Islamists). U.S will not allow minority groups, or a country to face yet another threat of genocide, and annihilation of a democratic state, as it did not allow it in Europe during WWII, Bosnia in 1996, and in Kuwait in 1991 (even though it is not a democracy).

GEOPOLITICAL: U.S. and Western countries have extensive economic and strategic interests in the Gulf & Middle East region. With exception of Israel, Turkey, and now Iraq, (perhaps Lebanon), all other states in that region are governed by unelected and unpredictable dictators. These rulers control more than 70% of oil reserve on earth - the lifeblood of the Industrialized nations economies. Unchecked, and with weapons of mass destruction (including Nuclear weapons) in their possession, any of these despotic rulers, is capable of destabilizing the region, and cause major catastrophic war among all nations. A prospect to which, U.S. and rest of the civilized world cannot allow.

Contrary to Arabs contention, a strong and prosperous Israel, it contributes to the stability of this fragile region, as it has done so far. Without Israeli deterrence and actions to stop his nuclear arm programs in 1981 - Former late Iraqi dictator, Saddam Hussein, would have controlled almost all the oil supply from this region, and the holiest places to Islam in Mecca & Media. Backed by nuclear and Chemical weapons in his possession, he would not have hesitated to unleash them on his neighbors, and Israel, as he did to the Iraqi-Kurds in 1988. He would have swallowed Jordan for breakfast. Much like he did with Kuwait, and attempted to do the same with kingdom of Saudi Arabia in 1990, when he was defeated by U.S. and its allies during the 1991 Gulf War. Now we are facing the same ominous prospect with the fundamentalist regime in Iran. The same regime which repeatedly and despite vociferous condemnations from other nations, its leaders continue to deny the Holocaust, and had declared its “divine” intention to “wipe Israel from the world map”.

Without the effective Israeli deterrence, the late Arafat, and his Palestinians, would have overthrown the kingdom of Jordan in September 1970, and the Christian led government of Lebanon, in 1981 as he attempted to do respectively. Only to be converted into a nest of Palestinian religious extremist, threatening the stability in the region. Lebanon would ceases to exist as a sovereign state, to become a Syrian province. Together with Iran, Syria would convert this former peaceful and prosperous little country into the terrorist group of Hizbollah, to be used as staging area to launch more intensified and deadly terror attacks against Israel , or any country which does not adhere to their strict interpretation of Shi'a Islam, as they did in 1983 in Beirut, WTC in 1993, and in July 2006.

With the election of Hamas in January 2006, in the West Bank & Gaza. This Islamist Sunni group had made the destruction of Israel, a centerpiece to its objective for the Palestinian cause.
Hamas however on 18 June 2007, it became more isolated and cornered, after it took control of Gaza with help from Hizbollah and their patron Iran, from the Ruling Fatah. After Israel's air and ground invasion of Gaza in December 2008 to stop the rockets attack on S. Israel, Hamas seems on the verge of military collapse.

GOVERNMENTS: U.S. & Israel, are both governed by democratic institutions. Based on freedom of expression, accorded to their respective citizens. Both countries, encourage public polemics, civilized social discourse, respect to rule of law. Both nations (along with other democracies that is) see these qualities as means to strengthen their societies.
Unfortunately much of the Arab & Islamic world believe otherwise. They do not practice democracy, nor do they allow discourse, or religious dissension.

HISTORY & RELIGION: Absolute majority of Americans are of the Christian belief. Since Jesus was a Jew. Whom had lived and preached in Jerusalem and its surroundings 2000 years ago. Therefore, they DO believe in Jews ancestral right to the land, and support the Jewish legitimacy as a religion, thus the Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem, and the State of Israel.

Unfortunately, most Muslims, and almost all Arabs never accepted the existence of Israel as a sovereign state. Rather, they perceive Jews in Israel as “settlers” and “foreign colonial occupiers”. Notwithstanding the fact that, former head of the Palestinians, the late Yasser Arafat, himself was born in, grew up, and had immigrated from Egypt to the Palestinian West Bank. Or, King Abdullah I (Grandfather of present king), himself was transplanted (Emir of Transjordan, 1921-1946) by the French from Saudi Arabia to Jordan.

Furthermore, some fundamentalist Muslims question the legitimacy of the Jewish religion, and label it as mere cult, created in Eastern Europe by the Zionists in early 18th Century. They dismiss the authenticity of the Old Testament, and claim it to have been written by “Protocols of Elders of Zion”, to provide Jews with road map to rule the world. A notion, contrary to most Americans basic belief in history and theology of their own religion.

SOCIAL & CULTURAL: Ever since late 1950's when Israel had transformed itself from a socialist state to a market driven economy, it became an ally of U.S. and other western countries, not only for economic reasons, but also for its independence as a democratic Jewish-majority state. Israeli government and its society have invested a great deal of time and effort to understand the American people, their form of government, social values, and their way of life. As result, U.S.-Israeli administrations and their respective societies have found more common ground with each other then ever before. As their economic and political ties strengthened, so their friendship.

While its citizens have maintained their respective ancient heritage, religious, cultural and the language of Hebrew, Israel has embraced many of the American’s economic models and practices, to which, it is the contributing factor in the rise of the Israelis standard of living today.

Unfortunately, most Arabs and extreme elements in Islam, chose to close themselves in - culturally, socially, and economically. Despite the Trillions of Dollars earned from oil revenues, their citizens still live at, or below the poverty line. Oppressed by their fundamentalist, or ruthless military leaders, their vast majority is kept ignorant of the world outside their own cultural and religious perimeters. While their backward, despotic, and corrupt ruler, lives in multiple palaces, stashes billions of Dollars of public money in his private foreign accounts, along with other hidden assets.

Arab & Muslims, complain that “Americans don’t understand neither Islam, nor Muslims”. Although it is true to some degree, they themselves spend little time to understand the Americans, or the western civilizations. This cultural of myopic and ignorance, inevitably lead them to falsely pin their social and economical ills on Israel, and continue to vilify U.S. and other western countries as the “ugly domineering imperialists”, to justify the reason behind those heinous terror attacks against others, such as in Madrid, London, Hague, to name a few.

Arabs and Jews are decedents of the same Semitic groups. Nearly 55% of Israeli population (including this writer) had immigrated from Islamic countries in the region. In fact, many of those immigrants have served as Presidents, Defense Ministers, and Head of IDF, all were born and grew up in Arab and Islamic countries etc.. Its former Foreign Ministers were born and immigrated from Tunis, Iraq and Morocco.

It is ironic that today, Israelis with their long history in that region, have more common with countries in other continents, then the ones across their own borders.

PARALLEL HISTORY & DEVELOPMENT: As immigrants themselves during the 18th & 19th Century, most Americans appreciate hard working & industrious people, as the Israelis are. During their formation periods, both nations pulled their best human resources, and with determination have created prosperous nations from deserts. Americans have much admiration to the Israeli achievements from which, despite their formidable odds of survival, they managed to provide their citizen with one of the highest standard of living in the world in less then 60 years.

HUMANITARIAN: Throughout their 3,500 history and heritage in that region, Israelite Jews were twice expelled from their land (Babylonians in 546 ACE, and by the Romans in 73 ACE). Subsequently they were scattered around the world, including the city of Khybar (near Holy city of Medina, Saudi Arabia), where a large Jewish community had lived there for almost a 1,000 years.

For centuries , Jews have been persecuted by their host countries in Europe, Middle East & North Africa. During WWII, more then Six Million Jews, and untold number of other ethnic and religious minority groups, were exterminated by the Nazis.

Those liberating Americans solders at the end of WWII in Europe, saw it first hand, the atrocities committed by the Nazis in the concentration camps. Since then, every U.S. administration has vowed to not let it ever happen again to any minority group. Regardless of their race, creed or religion.

ECONOMICAL: Ever since Israel’s economy and industry was transformed in mid 1960's, from an agricultural, into high technology hot bed for entrepreneurship. Its government, defense establishment, and private sectors had partnered and together invested enormous resources to create world class Universities, such as, Technion in Haifa. Hebrew University in Jerusalem. Research & Development centers, such as Weissman Institute of Science in Rehovot. And financial institutions, such as Bank Leumi, and Bank Hapoalim. The result of which, it brought the Israeli economy to be the 20th riches countries in the world today. Israeli scientists have developed some of the most advanced technologies in the area of, Agricultural, Electronics, Satellite technology, Internet security, Medicine, semiconductor technology, precision guidance, etc. As result, Israel has an extensive exchange of commerce and know-how with U.S., benefiting both countries.

Israel’s Gross Domestic Product (GDP) Per Capita, is higher then seven of its Arab neighboring countries - COMBINED (source: CIA 2007 Almanac).

Despite the Billions earned from oil income, unfortunately many Arab countries squandered these monies into the glorification of their corrupt, and ruthless dictators. Slaughter each other. Fight the “infidels”, Israel, and the western societies.

Statistics suggest that, Per Capita, Arab countries have some of the lowest numbers of Engineers, scientist, Doctors, or Architects, then any other nation on earth. Majority of their resources and energy are spent investing in, and about the bitter past, instead of building a future and hope for their exploding populations.

U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY: Israel’s intelligence and security forces are known among the most effective services in the world. It is no secret that, U.S. & Israeli security institutions closely cooperate with each other to fight terrorism. One should be certain that, Israel continuously provides vital and priceless intelligence to U.S. of an impending terrorist attack against U.S. civilians, here and abroad. Although the 9/11 terrorist attack could have been prevented, the public may never know how many other similar plots against Americans have been prevented as the result of the solid intelligence information provided by Israel to their American counterparts, thus saving thousands of American lives.

DEMOCRACY IN THE REGION: As mentioned, Israel is a multi-party democracy. Consist of devout Jewish religious parties, to Arab-Islamic, and outright atheist ones. They all represent diverse and differing opinions and philosophies. It is governed by rule of law, where no one is above the law. A country where leaders are replaced by the power of the ballot, instead of bullets. A country where all its citizens enjoy the freedom of speech and expression. Freedom of press, and inalienable right to political dissent. A shining light, in the vast darkness of oppression, and fundamentalist dogma prevalent elsewhere throughout the Arab-Islamic region.

By supporting Israel during its straggle to survive, U.S. (and other western democracies) hope that, Israel's openness, and freedom will eventually permeate throughout Arab countries, and serve as an example to their young generations that, social discourse, as painful as may be (such as, Israel recent pullout of Gaza in 2005), they all can be settled through dialog, and peaceful means. A phenomenon of which, U.S. And its western allies hope to hasten the transformation of the Arab-Islamic region into democracy.

THE PALESTINIAN ISSUE: Americans witnessed when in 1947, the League of nations had proposed a two-state solution for the region, a Palestine (Arab) and Israel (Jewish), living in peace side-by-side. American also heard and read of the refusal, and subsequent declaration of war by 6 Arab nations to annihilate the newly created tiny Jewish state in May, 1948.

Americans, also observed the Palestinian refusal to join in with the peace treaties signed in 1979 with Egypt, and with Jordan in 1995. And along with rest of the world, they also vividly saw for themselves in the summer of 2000 in Camp David, when the late Arafat walked away from an historic peace proposal offered to the Palestinians by former President Clinton and Mr. Barak of Israel. Instead, he committed his people to terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians. In the process subjected his own people to an unbearable suffering which continues today, with uncertain future. Instead of making history, the late Arafat himself became one.

Many Americans, and their Administrations make observations, ponder, and ask these hard questions.

1) Between 1948 and prior to Six Day War in 1967, there was no single Israeli occupation of the entire West Bank, Gaza strip, and East Jerusalem - The same territories for which the Palestinians are now fighting, as their future state.
Why an independent Palestine was not established then.? And, where was the fervent Arab support for “Palestinian Homeland” during those 19 years.

2) During that period, why Palestinians leaders, with the help of their rich brethren Arabs, did not build their own “settlements” and repatriate the remaining millions of Palestinians living in refugee camps in Lebanon, Syria, and elsewhere, back into the West Bank & Gaza.

3) Between 1947 to present day. Palestinian leaders have been offered their own state side by side Israel, no less then 6 times.
Why have they refuse to accept any of these offers.?

4) Palestinians are killing and sacrificing young generation for their independent State of Palestine as they declare, to “live in peace” next to sovereign state of Israel. If so true, then,
a) Why do they demand, to send the majority of their citizens to live in Israel?
b) During every peace talk, why Palestinians insist to have Israel’s ancient Capital City of Jerusalem as their own future Capital?
c) If they plead for peace and co-existence, why PLO & Hamas Charters call for the 'Liberation of Palestine' - meaning, the destruction of Israel, no less then 14 times. And Hamas charter call for killing Jews.?

5) For past 60 years, Palestinians have received tens of billions of dollars in aids, from U.S. and world community.
Where did all the money go, and why their lives have not been improved.?

6) All during past 60 years, why no Arab state (except Jordan), or Iran, has offered, nor allow citizenship in their own countries to those Palestinians refugees whom wanted to immigrate there?

7) It seems that, for all these years, Arabs have put the Palestinian agenda at the forefront of their relationship with the Western World, and Israel.
Why then, of all other Arabs living in throughout the Arab countries, only Palestinians are persecuted, or expelled, with no political, nor economic rights - Lebanon, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Libya, Iran, and elsewhere.

8) Since 1947, and 6 wars later, Palestinians have witnessed that, the only way Arabs have “liberated” any square inch land from Israel, it was through peaceful means.
Why do they think that, with terror, they are going to gain more then Egypt, and Jordan did.?

9) Arabs main complain against Israel is, its refusal to adhere to various UN Resolutions.
Why the same Arabs, themselves refuse to recognize the principals on which UN resolution 181 was based - creation of the State of Israel as a sovereign state?

10) Arabs accuse Israel for 'Stealing Palestinian land'.
If this claim is legitimate, what have prevented them from suing Israel in an International Court Of Justice to seek justice, instead of killing civilians.

COURAGE & DETERMINATION: Frankly, Americans like this feisty and fearless “little David”,surrounded and fighting a 350 Million strong giant Goliath, successfully defending itself.

United States of America does not support a particular country or a religion, as much as it vehemently opposes the prospect of a small country or group - be it, Muslims in Bosnia, Kuwait, Iraqi Kurds, Jews in Israel, or Christians in Sudan, facing genocide, and extermination by the hand of their larger neighbors. Notwithstanding its own strategic interests in the region. In case of Israeli - Palestinian conflict, certainly not those reasons for which nearly 57 Arab & Muslim countries present their opposition to the existence of only one Jewish and democratic state, where it occupies less then 0.2% of the region

FUTURE PROSPECTS: In my view, there is no alternative to peace, then peace itself. Middle East is a region where Jews, Muslims, Christians, Israelis, and Arabs, share a common history in the area going back more then three millenniums. They should be able to live side by side in harmony, cooperation and mutual respect. Now that Saddam Hussein & Yasser Arafat are gone. Election of fundamentalist Hamas to lead the Palestinian people. At the same time Al quida's threat to the world is becoming ever more ominous, it is time for the Muslim world in general, and Arab countries in particular to face reality, and realize that, with overwhelming majority of their ever exploding populations are uneducated and living below the poverty line, their people need food, shelter, jobs to provide decent living for their large families. Education in math & science for their children is the answer to their problem, not the daily dose of hatred. Muslims must pool their vast financial resources to create more jobs, instead of more kids. Graduate more engineers to design and build, and doctors, to save lives, not destroy ones. Architects to design and build homes, and factories, not bombs. Entrepreneurs to fund creation of more companies, not homicide bombers.

62 years, and Six wars later, has brought extreme suffering to both, Israelis and Palestinians. Arabs and Palestinians have not achieved their dream of “Palestine from the River to the Sea”. Palestinians certainly have their rights of self determination and a place of their own. However, their gain does not have to be at the expense of Israel’s very existence. Israel is not going anywhere. Not now, not ever. Israel is part of the problem, However, its destruction should be considered the only solution to solve Islamists own social, religious, or economic problems.

Americans and Israelis are not perfect by any means, both have their flaws. Notwithstanding, considering that, Arabs & Iran's urgent need to improve the standard of living in their respective countries, Israel's tremendous know-how in areas of Agricultural, Heavy Industry, Research & Development, Electronics, Medicine, etc. can help its neighbors – only if Hamas leaders chose the peaceful path to solve their differences with Israel. Arabs have an unlimited financial resources, manpower, and urgent need to develop their countries. Israel needs and wants peaceful coexistence with the rest of Arab & Islamic states. Through, industrial and economical development, job creation, throughout the Middle, many Arabs could earn a living, and feed their families with honor and dignity.

Once the economic prosperity for the Arab-Palestinian population is achieved. Israel obtains the security to which, each of its citizen is yearning for. Then the Palestinian issue will be resolved in a manner satisfactory to all.

It is unfortunate that Islam itself, and majority of decent and intellectual Muslims throughout the world have been taken hostage by a very small group of fanatic Muslims, dictators and clergyman. These backward individuals have taken over entire countries, such as Iran, Sudden, Libya, and the like, and set their entire population 1000 years backward. At the same time invest their oil money to acquire nuclear, and other weapon of mass destruction, in order to destabilize the region, and pretentious concerned for the Palestinians, they exploit the issue for their own agenda.

Sababa, do you consider all mullahs to be a destabilizing factor?
Maybe just a linguistic slip, but it probably reveals one strand of irreconcilable thinking that makes Israel 'supporters' a great destabilizing factor in the region, at least in the eyes of so many people.
Surely, in terms of sheer numbers of people killed, harmed, and humiliated -- the actions of Israel far outstrip any damage done by any other power in the region. Any serious look at destabilization would have to look at Israel, and the super-enhanced muscle it gains from its relationship with the United States.
But the road to peace and stability will not be through domination. Israel will have to live with its neighbours, and not above them. If Israel is threatening Iran, Iran will threaten Israel. If Israel has nuclear weapons for its 'defence', Iran will need them for its defence. Is there a difference? Why sould we support Israel having them, and Iran not having them? I just don't know.
By now, the simplisitic morality of the Neocon playbook has become so discredited, and the US so badly burned as a result of following its prescriptions, that none of this bluff flies like it used to. The Israel lobby may have to think up a whole generation of less costly and less belicose arguments, if it wants to remain relevant.

Let me please make few facts clear. Just examine the history of Israel and the Arab-Israeli conflicts in the region. Israel have NEVER EVER wanted to live in state of war with its neighbor. Why would we want to send our children to the battleground to die, unless we are left with no other choice.?

What the hell did we do to Iran, or the Iranian people?, that their leaders want to wipe us off the map?, and arming themselves to do just that. Can you spell religious?. (if you think that Shi'ite-Farsi has his heart bleeding for Sunni Arabs, whom they loath, and disdain, I got news for you my good man / woman).

I would suggest you to read UN resolution 181 from Nov 1947. which Israel had accepted, and Arabs rejected.

No, we don't want to be the bully in the block, nor be bullied by our neighbors. As I have mentioned many times here and other blogs. This conflict is not about land, rather state of mid. Just look how Arab & Muslims handle their own conflicts among themselves, and how they do it with Israel. The whole issue goes back 1350 years, all the way to Mohammad himself, where hatred of Jews has germinated and grown to the monster which is today.

Their tactic is, continued provocations against Israel, Target and rocket our innocent woman and children - all under the pretense of "resistance", just to force Israel to respond. And when we respond, the world is up and arm with false accusation of Israel committing "atrocities" against poor Palestinians - while they were mum when Hamas had launched more then 10,000 rockets over 8 year period.

In response to Frankier's question about what values are shared by the U.S. and Israel Sababa03 wrote: "Here is an essay which myself [sic] put together few years ago, to answer questions like yours. It was in response to Prof's Walt & Mersheimer Book 'The Israeli Lobby.'.... "

Sababa: While I understand that your fine essay is directly responsive to what Frankier asked, I don't think it is responsive at all to W&M's book and in any event utterly elides what I at least think is the central question people are concerned with as regards the U.S. and the Middle East and that is what ought to guide U.S. foreign policy? The pursuit of its own interests, or the pursuit of something else?

That is, while others may go anywhere from mere quibbling over to violently denouncing the thesis of your essay, even if it was precisely spot on and Israel was nothing less than a perfect clone of the U.S. values-wise, to me at least that means *nothing* in terms of presumptively dictating what the U.S.'s policies vis a vis that country ought to be. Why? Because quite obviously it could well be that you could have two mirror-image countries even where the interests of one militates in favor of seeing X happen and the interests of the other militates in seeing Y happen. And unless one denies this seemingly undeniable truth, one must then either argue that each country has the right to pursue its own interests, or it doesn't, period.

Of course your entire essay then can seem nothing but a valiant effort to side-step this by essentially saying that it isn't *interests* that ought to guide a country's foreign policy, but ... something else. What it's ... "shared values" are perhaps, or its "ideals." And that's fine, it's the polar opposite of the realist school, but maybe those of us who see realism as the general answer are wrong and your more "idealist" view is correct. Except that you then have to grapple with some very tough problems, not least of which is the knowledge that if you were to expressly come out and say to any country's citizens that you wanted them to pursue policies *not* in their interest you wouldn't find much of a following. (And then even if you *do* somehow persuade them to do so, it isn't likely to be very sustainable either.)

Moreover, it's always a little piquant to see Israeli partisans essentially arguing that the *U.S.* ought not take a realist/"interest" approach in its dealings with Israel (if not the frequently seen arguments that it would in fact be somewhat *evil* of the U.S. to do so), when every Israeli politician or figure that I've ever seen will (totally rightfully) at the drop of a hat proclaim to his or her fellow Israelis that they would *never* betray any central Israeli interests just because the U.S. wanted them to.

And of course while such statements abound as do such examples, certainly one of the most recent and the best too is when Obama merely asked it to halt all further settlement building for awhile and was stiff-armed. Certainly no one can argue that merely halting settlement expansion for some period of time is central to Israel's security or indeed even very important to it. And yet, there it was.

So while I differ with you rather profoundly that the U.S. and Israel share all the most important, deepest values that countries can have—for instance the U.S. is a "proposition" nation fundamentally, while Israel is one that describes itself as being based on whatever it means to be "jewish"—while I think this isn't necessarily totally irrelevant it simply can never be determinative.

Indeed, the very fact that Israel has even *once* reserved the right to follow its own interests contrary to U.S. wishes establishes the incoherence of the idea you seem to have: Since it always takes two to tango—i.e. both always acting out of shared values as you imply you believe in—the fact that either one may at any time decide *not* to tango shows the wrong-headedness of either *ever* trying to do so. It is nothing less than a prescription for being taken advantage of.

SABABA03

"You asked: "Also, what are mutual values that you are referring to?".

Here is an essay which myself put together few years ago, to answer questions like yours. It was in response to Prof's Walt & Mersheimer Book "The Israeli Lobby". [...] "

I appreciate your response ..... In spite of its length, I do not think that all those items make Israel different from other states on earth. As somebody stated, in foreign policy there are no friends, only coincidence of interests. Mere affinity between 2 countries does not cut it and it does not mean that one country supports the other unconditionally. Through all of your arguments, I do not see a cogent reason why the US needs to have a relationship with Israel that is on a different footing from the one it has with other countries.

Let us define first what is the “interest of a country.” Simply put, in my view, the interest of a country is defined as any action or inaction by a government that promotes the welfare of its citizens.

“NATIONAL: State […] of Israel was founded on 15 May 1948, as result of UN Resolution 181. Of those 57 Islamic and Arab countries, only four have formally recognized this Jewish state.
Not sure how all of this promotes the US interests?

ISRAEL'S SECURITY: Ever since its foundation […]
Again, what is the interest of the US here?
Your statements are not exactly correct since the US and other countries do allow democratic and non democratic foreign governments to discriminate against minorities (Tibet, Sri Lanka, Darfor, Myanmar, Kurd minority, Chiapas, Rwand, etc.). I don’t think you believe that the US intervention in Kuwait was motivated by some moral consideration. Besides responding to Pearl Harbor, I can see the interest to intervene in WWII to prevent the spreading of the Nazi regime that could have potentially reached the US. Bosnia … I think that it took a few massacres before the US moved in ….

GEOPOLITICAL: “ U.S. and Western countries […] Unchecked, and with weapons of mass destruction (including Nuclear weapons) in their possession, any of these despotic rulers, is capable of destabilizing the region, and cause major catastrophic war among all nations. A prospect to which, U.S. and rest of the civilized world cannot allow. […] “

I don’t see any real argument here to support your point. Actually, I would say that Arab governments in the M/E, maybe with few exceptions, have been quite stable and predictable. They would not dream of disrupting the status quo outside of the M/E. Even Saddam, if left unchecked would have probably tried to expand and gain control of oil resources, but never with the intention to destabilize the rest of the world … to whom would have he sold Iraq’s oil? The same goes for the other regimes in the M/E. The issues you bring out are regional issues. I don’t see the connection with the US here.

GOVERNMENTS: “U.S. & Israel, are both governed by democratic institutions. […] “
So what? So are dozens of other countries on earth.

HISTORY & RELIGION: “Absolute majority of Americans are of the Christian belief. Since Jesus was a Jew. Whom had lived and preached in Jerusalem and its surroundings 2000 years ago. Therefore, they DO believe in Jews ancestral right to the land, and support the Jewish legitimacy as a religion, thus the Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem, and the State of Israel. [….] ”
What is the point of this argument? First of all, the US Constitution mandates separation between state and religion. Secondly, how does it work for US citizens that happen to be Indu or Muslim or whatever other religion?

SOCIAL & CULTURAL: “[…] While its citizens have maintained their respective ancient heritage, religious, cultural and the language of Hebrew, Israel has embraced many of the American’s economic models and practices, to which, it is the contributing factor in the rise of the Israelis standard of living today. “
So has 90% of the planet.

PARALLEL HISTORY & DEVELOPMENT: “As immigrants themselves […]”
So what? There are many more other countries that have been populated by immigrants (all of Latin America?). Yet, the US has “helped” those countries only to the extent that there was a quid pro quo (cold war, market for US goods, cheap labor, etc.). Once the interest ceased, so did the help or decreased materially (see Central America countries).

HUMANITARIAN: “Throughout their 3,500 history [….] “
While the history of the Jew people may be tragic, it is hardly the only one on earth. Why don’t we help all of them? We give $3B + / pa to Israel and only peanuts to any others.

ECONOMICAL: “Ever since Israel’s economy and industry […]”
These links are hardly unique as the US has similar links to other countries.

“[…] Statistics suggest […]”
What is the relevance?

U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY: [….]
I believe that it has been demonstrated (e.g. 9/11 commission report) that the animosity of the extremists within the Islamic world is mainly the result of the special support the US provides to Israel. Most likely, there would have been no 9/11 attacks if the US had had a more balanced relationship with Israel. The need to leverage the Israeli intelligence and security would greatly decrease if the US did not support Israel.
Also, let’s not forget that the US national security is also endangered by Israeli spies. And please, don’t tell me that all countries do it. I know only of Israel that has stolen military secret from the US.

DEMOCRACY IN THE REGION: […]
I don’t think you really believe that the spread of democracy is a real objective of any government. In addition, have you considered that Arabs might not be interested in democracy? They are interested only in a “just” government. So, leave them alone. And don’t tell me for a second that Iraq is a democracy or that it will ever be.

THE PALESTINIAN ISSUE: “[…]
Where is the interest of the US?

COURAGE & DETERMINATION: “ Frankly, Americans like this feisty and fearless “little David”,surrounded and fighting a 350 Million strong giant Goliath, successfully defending itself. [….]”
Frankly …. Too many movies – Show me the interest of the US

FUTURE PROSPECTS: In my view, there is no alternative to peace, then peace itself. […]

I agree that the way to peace is the prosperity of the Palestinian people. How do you achieve that? One state… integrate the Palestinian within the Israeli society. Israel needs to live up to the claim of a multi-ethnic and multi-religion society. Create jobs for the Palestinian, quotas, affirmative action, free education, etc. Then, I would be happy if my tax payer dollars went to Israel. Maybe, those s $3B p/a could be put to a better use.

we can try to treat honestly the fact that Pro-Israel Political Action Committees gave over 55 million dollars to Congressional and Presidential campaigns between 1992 and 2005. That's enough to get any politician to bullshit about "shared history and values."

Arab American Groups try to lobby, but during that same period they gave a measly 850 thousand in contributions.

Peace groups try to lobby, but raise almost no money.

Oil Companies and Saudi Lobbyists also work on the Hill, but their activities are limited to maintaining lax environmental regulations, tax policies, and obtaining drilling rights. They stay away from foreign policy.

This fact is what led Douglas Bloomfield, a former director of AIPAC, to disclose to the BBC in 2003 that "Pro Israel advocates have one main advantage, we have NO competition."

So I'd beg to differ from Sababa's theory on the reason why there is near-uniform support of Israel in Congress. Yes, the same Congress where virtually EVERY issue is hotly debated and politicized. Where MAJOR reform laws get hijacked by a handful of Congressmen and hinge procedurally on as little as one vote. Where Senators rail against one another as meaningless earmarks and subsidies are used to buy off votes. Yet no one says a peep that could even remotely be construed as critical of Israel.

The answer isn't "shared history and culture." It's money.

Israel and the US might share the same values, but not the same interests. Big difference - two countries can never share the same interests. Hamas didn't exist prior to Israel and in fact your government (the Israeli one) had a hand in creating Hamas to counter Fatah. Why doesn't he criticize Hamas? Because he's already criticized Israel and it would be redundant. The US had no real conflict (aside from operation ajax) until Israel came along. So you can pat yourself on the back for the majority of this mess.

"What the hell did we do to Iran, or the Iranian people?, that their leaders want to wipe us off the map?"

do they want to wipe you off the map or do they wish to see the end of Zionism? Sababa, are you purposely spreading misinformation or are you ignorant to the reality of the Iranian position?

but do you really think Professor Walt, at the end of the day, would care if he had to stop blogging due to lack of readers and/or comments and/or commenters? His income is presumably secure, and professionally he is secure as well, presumably (tenure must be nice). I doubt Professor Walt is trying desperately, at any cost, to establish his reputation as a blogger.

.... and you know this from where ? .....

Israeli publications. In Hebrew and English. such as these.
http://www.inss.org.il/publications.php?cat=68&incat=&read=1243
http://www.debka.com/

SaBaba, You be a member of the JIDF, The Jewish Internet Defense Force?
You also be a dual citizen? Should a Shin Bet babe sidle up to you and ask for a favor, which will it be, the USA or that other country?

Courtesy of someone I copied it from, an excellent description of how the mutual admiration lobby works:
Three billion dollars from the US Congress to Israel = 500million USD from Israel to AIPAC = 100million USD from AIPAC to US Congressmen = 3billion USD from Congress to Israel = 500million USD from Israel to AIPAC = 100million USD from AIPAC to US Congressmen. . . . The ultimate Madoff Scheme.

I agree with every part of that equation, except the 500 mil from Israel to AIPAC.

They're much too careful to be meddling that blatantly in US elections.

And that's where Arab Americans can't compete.

The wealth harnessed by AIPAC and directed to campaigns is genuinely generated by Pro-Israel American citizens - not laundered by a handful of Americans on behalf of Israel.

That's the big difference. Pro-Palestinian American citizens just don't have the wealth and knowledge of the system to compete... yet.

Again, these simpleton arguments aren't doing you any favors here.

To caricature all of Islam as a certain way by proping up Hamas or Hizbollah as the 'ideal' Muslims practicing nominal Islam, is a joke. Not even recognzing that Hizbollah is centrally rooted in Twelver Shi'i Islam and Hamas is rooted in the mold of the Egyptian Ikhwan and Sayyid Qutb... fanatical Sunnis.

You say things like:

"No Muslim is allowed to challenge any passage, tenet, sentences, word, or even the placement of a dot in the Quran, Hadith, and the Sunna. NONE. Whatever written in their, you follow blindly. And if the Quran says "Jews are Apes and Pigs", you believe it - PERIOD."

This further exposes your (with all due respect) stupidity.

The question isn't challenging the text, it's differing interpretations. Not that all "Jews are Apes and Pigs" but that a set group of individuals in history, because of their misdeeds, were transformed into Apes and Pigs... and they happened to be Jews.

The book also talks about saving the Jews, as a chosen people, from Pharoah. So why not interpret that the Jews are a specially honored sub-sect of Humanity? Precisely because that's what opportunistic fanatics do... they "believe in a portion of the Book, and deny a portion of the Book," a practice which the Qur'an itself condemns.

Is fanaticism and ignorance a problem? Definitely. But does that justify manipulating people's relative ignorance of one of the World's major faiths and scaring the hell out of them by portraying Hamas as the vanguard of capital "I" Islam? No.

Sababa03 wrote:

"I am not berating the Muslims people here, nor blame them directly for our conflict. It all stems from the core ideology by which these innocent people are being taught by their clergies on one hand, and the military dictators on the other hand."

Yeah, as discussed before in an earlier thread, lots—and maybe even everything essentially—just comes down to this "trust" issue. (With the arab/muslim perspective of course being that "the jews" can't be trusted; proclaiming that they want to live in peace but in forty-some years can't bring themselves to stop stealing arab/muslim land, and then of course seeing lots of stuff in jewish religious texts and talk about jewish superiority and the worth of everyone else not being above that of a jewish fingernail and etc. and so forth.)

I don't know that there is a solution but if one's possible I can only think that it will come via these ideas and perspectives being fully aired and civilly talked about, and so I appreciate your frankness and don't think you deserve the abuse you get here, Sababa. Hope you realize that it's only just natural and that on reflection the better angels of most realize that people being honest is the only way forward and so should be welcomed.

Moving from the parenthetical I must say there's a kind of meme running through your perspective that I think you ought to reconsider in terms of its import: That is, what I hear from you and very frequently if not invariably from other Israeli partisans is a kind of assumed superiority in noting that the arab/moslem world doesn't seem to be as attracted to what might be called the trappings of modernity as Israel and the West is. "They don't invent anything, they aren't interested in industrialization" and etc. and so forth.

To an (unknown) extent to me this seems questionable; certainly it seems to me that the arab/moslem world hasn't grabbed onto "modernity" as *fully* as Israel and the West, but that might just be a matter of time. Just as certainly one can see how the attractions of modernity in the arab/moslem world are strong enough to be causing serious rifts in same even. Western movies, high-tech stuff and etc., yeah, lots of attraction to lots of this kind of stuff seen here and there.

Otherwise though I would also say that while I understand Israel's pride in building a very "modernist" society (albeit with much help from the West), to many of us in the West modernism isn't an unalloyed thing. That is, to me at least there's lots to be said for people who don't aspire to build or live in an essentially "urbanist/metropolist" society, and value a more small-holding, small business and/or rural, small-scale life, especially the agricultural.

Nothing to look down upon there, to me at least. Saying, essentially, that people who want to live in Tel Aviv (or NYC, for that matter, or any huge urban mess) are inherently superior somehow to people who want to live in some small little village, or run some small little family business, boy that just doesn't resonate with me at all. Nor, I think, with many people here in the West who have dealt with alot of the stresses if not deformations put to personal and human values that seems to come with ever-increasing "modernism."

It's kinda funny in fact how originally "modernism" was somewhat of a voluntary movement embraced by painters and thinkers and etc., and yet now virtually everyone who has been exposed to it for its full term (which doesn't include Israel given its more recent birth and development) agrees that there are aspects of it that are more akin to an affliction.

In short I at least don't think there's anything to be said for looking down on what can seem a large fundamental part of the arab/moslem world's preference for rural or "small-scale" living, with small plot farmers tending olives their families have been tending for generations, or running small family businesses that may have provided for untold generations of their families upon families. Okay, maybe they ain't inventing lasers, but what's the incidence of suicide in arab/moslem societies? Or single-parent families? And what percent are on anti-depressants? Or are hopeless drug addicts?

"Cosmpolitanism" ain't everything you know.

being born in a Muslim country and living there as a child doesn't make you the solitary authority on anything, much less about the truth of Islamic history.

If that were the case, there would be a billion experts on Islam.

Furthermore, it is incredibly ignorant and insulting to a person of ANY faith to cherry pick the most vile, intolerant, anti-compromise, and bigoted denomination of their faith, and present that as THE TRUE FAITH.

Is Rabbi Kahani's Judaism the true Judaism? Is Avigdor Leiberman's take on Zionism THE ZIONISM?

Was David Koresh's Christianity the true Gospel of Christ?

What the heck are we talking about here?

Also, "Ya'ani"doesn't mean 'presumably.' Either you don't know Arabic properly or you don't know English properly... but it means "meaning," as a transitional verb.

And it's Jizya, not Jyzza.

Knowing the words "Qur'an, Sunnah and Hadith" doesn't mean you know what they are. There aren't 14 different "versions" of the Qur'an. There are 7 different ways of reciting it, each that renders different contextual meanings of verbs and nouns. There are hundreds of thousands of Hadith on limitless subjects, and several different authoritative collections. The Sunnah is based on these hadith and the different methods devised for authenticating them... and yes, there are such things as fabricated hadith.

To conclude, by your logic, because I've visited Israel 3 times over several years, I am officially the final authority on all things Judaic... so I'm going to proceed onwards to bash the hell out of Jews and their religion... because trust me, My Good Man, I know Jews.

How absurd.

All I know is that if I had spilled HALF of the hate-filled, incredibly ignorant and insulting non-sense you have on this post and others - I would have been banned as an anti-Semite a long time ago.

But hey, it's OK for you... you're an Israeli Jew.

I'll take comfort in what Barney Frank said to some other nincompoops "... it's a tribute to the first amendment that you're allowed to shout such vile things to the public."

peace

Hombre,
I don't hate Muslims. In my view, thetmselves are the real victims of rigid, oppressive and soppressive ideology. I loath any core ideology of any religion (including my own), which prevents its followers from enagaging in open, honest and intelligent polemics about all faceds of life - including religion.

I condemn any religion which will beheads people for asking simple and poignent questions about the conduct of its prophets. After all he was a human being first, with all our limitations, fallabilities, and shortcoming, then a prophet.

I condemn any religion which declares itself as "a religious of peace". YET, its holy book talks about wars, raids on peaceful people, or "vanquished enemies", rape and "booty". A religion. AND no one can question the rational of this madness.

A religion which will behead any non-believer caught wondering within 20km (11.5 Miles) of its holy city.

A religion which condones honor killing.

Stop being so sensitive. These are important and poignant to which Muslims need to provide answer for. Coming back here and throwing your mud back at people's face will not solve the problem facing the Islamic ummah. Look inside your own backyard first.

I don't hate Muslims. In my view, thetmselves are the real victims of rigid, oppressive and soppressive ideology. I loath any core ideology of any religion (including my own), which prevents its followers from enagaging in open, honest and intelligent polemics about all faceds of life - including religion.

So you're not really a Jew by convinction, you're a Jew by incidental birth.

And the Muslim view on polemics isn't that no one is free to point out the differences of other faiths or their own. It's that no one is free to go around lobbing unwarranted and unsubstantiated ad-hominems against sacred figures like Moses, Jesus or Muhammad. So Jews can't bash Christians by calling Mary a harlot, or Jesus a lying rabbi. Or Christians and Jews go beyond rejecting Muhammad - to calling him a thief, murderer, or pedophile etc. Polemics isn't hate speech. You seem to fail to understand that basic fact. I have yet to see anything "intelligent" about your polemics. You refuse to answer to the systematic deconstruction of your cherrypicked GDP lists, or your sweeping generalizations about the lack of formidable learning institutions in the 'Muslim World,' or their supposed backwardness. You equate "ideology" with terms like "religion" or "faith" or "creed," which, to anyone with half a brain, are completely different concepts. You cite terms like "Qur'an, Sunnah and Hadith" without presenting a single example of the said terms. And my hunch is that you'll go dig up a Hadith or verse like "Kill them whereever you find them" and quote it COMPLETELY out of context, not provide any classical commentary on it, not provide any contemporary commentary given to it, not provide what the differing legal opinions are related to it... and then leave the onus on someone like me to "engage in intelligent polemics." Ofcourse the second I do that, you won't come back with more questions - you'll come back with "you're just being an apologist."
Ofcourse then I'll go on to cite all the non-sense that's in the Torah and Talmud to prove my point and put you on the 'apologist' defensive. And you'll finally reply with something like "well, I don't believe in Judaism, I'm just an ethnic Jew," and make all of this charade a moot point.

I condemn any religion which will beheads people for asking simple and poignent questions about the conduct of its prophets. After all he was a human being first, with all our limitations, fallabilities, and shortcoming, then a prophet.

Again, point to one example of someone being beheaded for asking such a question. But I will say that Prophets are called Prophets because they are (naturally) special human beings. Islam does believe in the infallibility of all Prophets, which does not mean we can't debate the meaning of a given Prophet's reaction to a certain situation, or the possible state of mind he or she was in, or the logic, or lack thereof, they used when making a certain action. There's an entire discipline in Islam devoted to the very thing that you just said doesn't exist. It's called Fiqh. So perhaps you should (really) know what you're talking about before typing?

I condemn any religion which declares itself as "a religious of peace". YET, its holy book talks about wars, raids on peaceful people, or "vanquished enemies", rape and "booty". A religion. AND no one can question the rational of this madness.

"Islam is a religion of Peace" is a mantra touted by those simple-minded Muslims who either don't know their faith, or are hoping that if they repeat something enough, people may actually start to believe it. There is no 'religion of peace.' Every religion has a concept of 'Just War.' What they can rightfully say is that "Islam is a religion that condemns Aggression." And again, point me to a SINGLE place in the Qur'an where Muslims and incited to war against harmless and peaceful people, or one that calls on Muslim men to rape Women. Is this the "intelligent polemics" you wanted to engage in? Radical and libelous claims without any proofs?

A religion which will behead any non-believer caught wondering within 20km (11.5 Miles) of its holy city.

We wouldn't behead them. We'd ask them to leave. And then deport them. That's how sanctuaries work.

A religion which condones honor killing.

Sources? When did Muhammad committ an honor killing? When did he ask people to do it, or say that it was OK? Don't traditional Arab Christians also kill their daughters for compromising their family's honor? Don't African animists (I know that's a troublesome term) do the same? Pockets of Europe even had that practice. The Roman aristocracy even engaged in honor killings. It's a human problem, not something that started or will end with Islam... which in anycase has NOTHING to do with it.

Stop being so sensitive. These are important and poignant to which Muslims need to provide answer for. Coming back here and throwing your mud back at people's face will not solve the problem facing the Islamic ummah. Look inside your own backyard first.

Stop being so incendiary. I guess they are important questions, but they're framed in a weighted and bigoted fashion. The question isn't, "Does the language of the Qur'an and that of Muhammad's spoken words easily lend itself to violence-prone interpretations?" Instead, it's "Why is Islam so oppressive or belligerent." As if we're already assuming that it is, and now we just want an explanation for why.

--------------

Does anyone else see this stupidity? I mean it's basic logical fallacies being repeated over and over again.

Where are the fair-minded and analytical "Dave123" and "Dave in DC that jump all over the Professor every time he opens his mouth on the issue of Israel, and yet sit silent when a self-professed Israeli Jew is sitting here tossing wild and ignorant accusations around about a sixth of the world's population? Is this the "moral high ground" Israeli's claim? Bark rabidly at unfair criticism of themselves, and sit back silently to watch others get slandered? All in the name of making Israel look good? Speak up folks.

For god sake, are you ven trying to understand what I am trying to convey to you. I am asking you oranges, you reply apples.
I WAS TALKING ABOUT INTRA-ISLAMIC POLEMICS. Not inter-religious conversion. My point was, do Muslims scholars are even allowed to convene and explore the role of Islam as it is practices today, meet the challenges of 21st century?.

- Does Sharia law is applicable in these day and age of internet, and instant communication?, not some type of kah kah you are schipplin here.

- Do Muslims have to follow every word and every tenet prescribed in the Quran?.

In the next chapter, I will bring here some of the juicy passages from the Quran or hadith, on denigration of Jews.

So long amigo, hasta luego. Don't go way, we are not done. I am having fun with you.

I'll bother to entertain your "juicy" quotations... so long as you are intellectually honest.

That means for every verse and saying you quote, you'll provide the context in which it was revealed. The time at which it was revealed. What were its immediate implications. How classical jurists have interpreted it. How modern jurists interpret it. And how different factions in Islam interpret it today, and then apply it.

If after passing through that gauntlet, you've STILL got a "juicy" verse that denigrates all of Jewry or Christendom... then I promise to respond.

Otherwise you're wasting my time with wiki and google Islam. And I have no interest in debating with fly-by-night instant-'scholars.'

-------

Notice again, you STILL haven't answered a single contention of mine.

Weather I answered your questions or not, (which I did in length), I will leave it to others here to judge for themselves.

Every time I asked a poignant and pertinent question about Islam, and its role it these days, all you end with, is insults, by calling me "ignorant", and try to tell me who I am and what Judaism is. If you don't respect the religious to which I believe in, why should I (or others) respect your region. If you wish to be honored, you have to earn it. Period.

Now, I really don't mind to listen to lectures from others, after which I could learn something new. However, coming from an adherent of a Johny-come-lately religious adherent, it is hard to swallow. I am sorry pal, but from what you seem to convey about the highly-mighty religious of Islam, in reality it was conceived by an illiterate man coming from the deserts of Arabia. It has no bearing on today's reality. It is fear of this man, which even 1400 year later which keeps most Muslims "glued" together.

Mind you, I do read the old testament in its ancient Hebrew text. Many times I find my stomach turn with the amount of killing, mayhem, rape and loot (yes from my own ancestors), just as much as Quran has the same degree of filth.
THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US HOWEVER, I CAN GO OUT THERE FOR GOD SAKE, DISCUSS AND EXPRESS MY DISAPPROVAL WITH MY RABBI AND MY COMMUNITY IN PUBLIC WITH NO FEAR. YOU HOWEVER, CAN NOT DO THE SAME WITH YOUR IMAM, OR MULLAH, NOR THE COMMUNITY.

So instead of coming back with yet another one of your diatribe, asking me to explain to you a passage that I do not accept, nor respect (what was said in Quran, when was said, ). I am the one asking the question. You are the one who suppose to answer.

Finally, since I do not profess to be an Islamic scholar, nor care much to believe everything written in the Quran, as "word of Allah", I have referred to those scholars on Islamic studies who do have the answers to your pre-conditional questions.

His name is Dr. Robert Spencer. He never slanders Islam, nor denigrates Muslims. Being himself a Western-American, his main source about the Quran is the exact translation of the Quran from its original Arabic to English, made by Muslim scholars, not his own. So now you have it. Go over them (in the link), and let me know which one of those translation are lies, and slanderous.

Source: http://www.jihadwatch.org/quran-commentary.html

you write: "I hope you have some plans."

Reply: Yes, I do - Salvation from nasty and false accusation of anti-Islamic, coming from some of guys here on the forum.