Posted By Stephen M. Walt Share

When I got out of the shower this morning, my wife was waking up to NPR. Her first comment to me was this: “I never thought I would hear an NPR reporter say those words.” What had she just heard?  A report that the Obama administration was “under fire” for defending the rights of terrorist suspects.

She wasn’t complaining about NPR’s coverage, mind you, she was commenting on the bizarre situation where anyone -- let alone a president and his administration -- could be “under fire” for defending a core principle of the American justice system. The Founding Fathers would be spinning in their graves, about as fast as a nuclear centrifuge. They understood the dangers of giving executives arbitrary authority to arrest, detain, coerce, and try suspects (i.e., those whom authorities think might have committed a crime but whose guilt has not yet been determined). So suspects -- all suspects -- are accorded certain legal rights.

I’m not a lawyer and so I don’t normally weigh in on legal issues, including the continuing debate over torture, the use of civilian vs. military tribunals to try suspected terrorists, and the other aspects of post-9/11 policy. As a matter of policy, however, the case for abandoning our normal criminal justice procedures strikes me as laughably weak.  As Andrew Sullivan, Glenn Greenwald, and others have noted repeatedly, the various Bush-era abuses (including torture, “preventive detention,” reliance on military tribunals) were a propaganda boon for our adversaries, and did not in fact lead to significant intelligence breakthroughs or other strategic benefits. And as numerous commentators have pointed out, the criminal justice system worked just fine in the case of Richard Reid (the Al Qaeda “shoe bomber”) and Ramzi Yousef (who planned the 1993 World Trade Center bombing and is now serving a life sentence without parole).  And on the issue of torture, top military commanders like David Petraeus agree.

The latest evidence, of course, is the guilty plea entered by Najibullah Zazi at his trial in New York City (yes, the very same New York city that supposedly couldn’t hold a trial for Khalid Sheikh Muhammed). Zazi was was arrested and charged with conspiracy, for plotting to detonate a bomb in the New York subway system. He was Mirandized and interrogated in the normal fashion (i.e., he wasn’t waterboarded). The result? He pleads guilty, and appears to be singing like a bird. Good thing we didn’t send him to Guantanamo, where he might have been tortured, and his evidence rendered either suspect or legally inadmissible.

The lesson here is that Americans ought to have more faith in our existing institutions. It’s a great paradox: we constantly tell the world how great our country is, how our values ought to be emulated, and how other states would be much better off if they re-made their societies in our image. But then something bad happens, panic sets in, and people conclude that those same precious values are in fact a fatal weakness that our enemies will exploit to bring us down. And the result is usually an embarrassing and shameful tragedy (like the incarceration of Japanese-Americans in World War II), for which we later have to apologize and make restitution.

Defenders of these abuses sometimes point out that Lincoln, Roosevelt, and other American icons were also willing to suspend core U.S. values in times of national emergency, and that the pendulum swung back once the danger is over. I would make three comments in response.

First, to the extent that this is true, it merely underscores the need for opponents of these policies to keep making the case against them. The pendulum won’t swing back if critics don’t explain why these policies are misguided, or if their advocates prove to be louder or more persistent.

Second, even if the pendulum does swing back somewhat, it may not go all the way. We may have abandoned water-boarding, for example, but the Obama administration has retained a number of other Bush-era policies, including preventive detention and extraordinary rendition. And we all know that once in place, many policies prove remarkably resistant to change. Moreover, executive power in the realm of national security has been growing steadily for the past century -- and especially since the Cold War began -- and it is not obvious to me that this has been a net positive. Third, it is worth remembering that former Vice President Cheney and key aides like David Addington were not advocating a temporary response to a new threat, akin to Lincoln’s suspension of habeas corpus during the Civil War. Rather, they saw 9/11 as an opportunity to pursue a permanent increase in executive power, a goal that they had been seeking for many years. (Never mind that they don't seem very interested in a strong executive during this administration).  And I suppose we should be grateful that Bush’s many failures helped slow this power grab somewhat.

You might think a realist like me would be in favor of a strong executive, on the grounds that states in the dog-eat-dog world of international politics need a strong hand on the tiller of the ship of state. But realists also have a healthy appreciation for human frailty, and the tendency for those who possess great power to abuse it. Concentrating too much power in the executive is a good way to blunder into foolish wars, and it can even discourage the sort of open debate and discussion that (sometimes) helps democracies to avoid the fatal errors that authoritarian governments often make.

So have a little faith in our existing institutions, and stop trying to become more like the countries we normally oppose.

CHRISTINE CORNELL/AFP/Getty Images

 

BLUE13326

4:52 PM ET

February 23, 2010

Some areas of this piece are

Some areas of this piece are weak while others are simply false; while it is simple historical fact that Lincoln and Roosevelt, just to cite two examples, cracked down far harsher on civil liberties than anything Bush did, your response is laughably weak. Of course the pendulum swung back, and that is the process we are in now. In fact, one can view American history as a continuing expansion of civil rights (although not economic ones).

And stop demonizing those who disagree with you; it marks you as someone with the maturity of a child. Cheney et al. never advocated the power to torture people in perpetuity; in fact, their legal arguments were very clear that this was temporary. You are confusing, either intentionally or through ignorance, their desire for a general expansion of presidential power (which is nothing compared with how much presidential power Obama has grabbed in just his first year), with their temporary desire for expanded powers to persecute the war on terror.

Lastly, the whole basis for your piece is a simple category error. Unlike KSM, Zazi is a legal resident of the US, entitled to many of the protections of a U.S. citizen; he was not caught in the act, unlike Abdulmutallab; and he was captured on U.S. soil. A little nuance goes a long way.

 

DEPETRIS@WORDPRESS.COM

5:58 PM ET

February 23, 2010

Great Win!

This is great win for those of us who have full confidence in American values. But I suspect that this will mostly likely fall on deaf Republican ears, or those who are still pushing for military tribunals. They will probably say something like, "well, Zazi was an American citizen, so he should be entitled to a fair judicial hearing in the U.S. criminal justice system." Whether he was an American citizen or not, he cooperated with interrogators and spilled out some much needed information on Al'Qaeda in Pakistan. And guess what..Abdulmutallab is doing the same exact thing. Seems like the criminal-justice approach is working wonders huh?

http://www.depetris.wordpress.com

 

MESSIAS

9:16 PM ET

February 23, 2010

O Princípio, a Percepção, a Intenção e o Fato. Quo Vadis

A palavra e a lágrima.

- in Portuguese Language (Brazil)

O que hoje é o Paraíso, um dia foi o Olimpo, a casa dos deuses, onde moravam deuses e deusas.
Os deuses não precisavam se fazer humanos para vivenciar o existir.
Pois eles eram muitos em um único lugar e eram espiritualizações da própria existência.
E assim, possuiam traços de personalidade e não eram meras abstrações.
Quando estavam em paz entre sí, havia harmonia entre as pessoas.
Mas quando entravam em conflito lá em cima, aqui em baixo exércitos lançavam-se uns contra os outros.
E eram sensíveis às pessoas pois não se bastavam em sí mesmos nem faziam questão de aparições espetaculares.
Mesmo o Deus a quem hoje as pessoas oram, se bastasse a sí mesmo não teria criado a Humanidade.
Quando vinham ao mundo os deuses se manifestavam em forma de pensamento na mente das pessoas.
Assim falavam com o indivíduo sobre suas incertezas e não se propunham a tentar convencer multidões.
Gregos e Romanos viveram, amaram e sofreram e lutaram.
Mataram e morreram em guerras de conquista em busca de um mundo melhor só possível na forma de um grande Império.
Ou uma nova ordem onde as pessoas comuns se desarmariam e a força se tornaria somente prerrogativa do Estado.
E assim a noção de certo de errado seria estabelecida para as pessoas por mentes pensantes e não estaria mais subordinada ao humor de ignorantes armados.
Os Gregos foram o primeiro povo a se impor sobre a realidade tribal.
Eles desenvolveram a noção de Estado ou seja, um denominador comum aos anseios de toda a população.
Chegaram à perfeição em Ciências Militares e viram em cada menino que nascia um novo Soldado.
Em Sparta, um menino deixava a família aos 7 anos para ir para o Exército. E ali passava por um treinamento que só terminava aos 21 anos, quando enfim era considerado um Soldado.
Mas não voltava para a família, pois ia para a guerra.

E assim Felipe expandiu as fronteiras da Grécia para além do horizonte.
Ele é o idealizador da Falange, uma formação impenetrável utilizada até hoje.

Mas seu filho, Alexandre, o Grande expandiu seus domínios para além do improvável.
Mas o que define o quilate de um Exército é a disciplina, a força e a fúria.
E os Gregos foram vencidos pelos Romanos.
Mas a derrota não significou escravidão.
Admirados com a inteligência dos Gregos, os Romanos os levaram para suas casas para serem professores de seus filhos.
E assim nasceu a cultura Greco-Romana, presente até os nossos dias sob a forma de Cultura Ocidental.
Os Gregos eram tão inteligentes, que determinam muitas decisões que tomamos hoje.

Em relação à Governança, a existência de um Deus chamado de pai, depois de compreendida, foi bem recebida pelo Poder.
Pois ela confirmava o princípio da Autoridade.
A devoção a um Deus masculino compreendia a dedicação da existência àquele que o concebeu.
No relacionamento humano, isso compreendia a a submissão do filho ao pai por toda a vida .
E a noção de pai da criança a acompanha até a vida adulta e estabelece seu relacionamento com o chefe, o patrão (palavra que significa pai), o príncipe e o rei ou imperador.
E essa decisão de vida se renova à cada dia no momento da oração.
A oração é um momento íntimo de sinceridade que só se alcança através da fé.
A fé é uma senha subliminar através da qual o indivíduo abre mão de sua consciência para dar acesso ao seu subconsciente àquilo que foi especificado por outra mente e assim passa a querer com todas as suas forças aquilo que outra pessoa determinou por indução.
Esse comando se instala em sua estrutura psicológica de tal forma que questionar sua aplicação na vida real implica em implodir-se a si mesmo pois toda a noção de si próprio desaba.
Isso explica a pessoa que trabalha em condições insalubres, superando o instinto de preservação.

Quanto aos deuses, eles não foram esquecidos em consequência de reflexão.

Seus templos foram destruídos pelo Imperador Romano e seus sacerdotes banidos ao ostracismo ou assassinados.
Pois o Imperador concluiu que a dialética era uma pedra no sapato do Estado.
Pelo que se conclui que sem o interesse inabalável do Imperador, o Cristianismo teria sido reumido à uma Seita.
Não é por outra razão que o Papa mora em Roma.

Portanto, em sua lógica o Cristianismo é uma organização da convivência entre homens, completamete indiferente à existência da mulher, que relegada à condição de pária, tem sua existência limitada àquilo pelo que o homem não se interessa ou não se propõe a fazer. Além de estar condenada a expiar o pecado dos homens por ser indefesa.
Toda mulher só tem a sí mesma.
E em seu momento mais profundo de introspecção, ora para um Deus masculino que gerou um filho em Maria para que ela o visse cruxificado.
A Paixão de Cristo foi traduzida para muitos idiomas, ao longo dos séculos, numa tentativa de expressar seu sofrimento.
Mas as palavras são inúteis para exprimir as lágrimas de Maria em toda sua divindade de ser mulher.

 

KASSANDRA

10:21 AM ET

February 25, 2010

Zazi

What's this, a Portuguese version of Evangelical Christians?

One aspect of the Zazi issue is that apparently all he did was buy too much peroxide at beauty supply stores. (This would sort of make every other blonde in the US a potential terrorist.) His father also received life because he threw his son's bomb-making peroxide into the river. And Zazi aparently changed his plea to guilty when his mother was threatened with deportation back to Afganistan(and who knows what else).
True, the civilian system works as well as the military one, but in the atmosphere of a terrorist under every bed, is the verdict any fairer?

 

KASSANDRA

5:55 PM ET

February 25, 2010

Humanitarian Law Project v. Holder

Glenn Greenwald at Salon has a post on the Humanitarian Law Project v. Holder case before the Supreme Court right now. To quote, "What this case underscores most is how easy it is to obtain convictions of virtually anyone in our civilian court system on Terrorism charges."
So apparently the only difference between the civilian courts and the military tribunals is the amount of force used to extract confessions, or was the bogeyman of civilian courts being lax developed to give the military/CIA something to do, i.e. create jobs for serious torturers, or what?

 

DICKERSON3870

7:59 PM ET

February 27, 2010

RE: "all suspects -- are accorded certain legal rights" - Walt

MY COMMENT: I imagine the all-powerful 'Federalist Society' would "beg to differ". Not literally, of course; begging just isn't their style (David Addington, for instance). "They surround us." - to borrow from the ignominious Glenn Beck

 

DRUTHERS

2:49 PM ET

February 28, 2010

Values and Power

I think there is much to question now about "American Values."
Are they real? Are they living values? I no longer think so. We are subscribing to mythical values that now have little or no substance.
The functioning of our political system has little to do with "democracy" Our so-called representatives are bought and sold on the public square like cattle at an auction; this human trafficing upheld by the Supreme Court.
Democracy is not founded on faith. Public servants need to be controlled and when necessary held on a short leash.
Uncontrolled power is one of the things hell is made of.

 

Stephen M. Walt is the Robert and Renée Belfer professor of international relations at Harvard University.

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