there already is an Arab Palestinian State. It is called Jordan. It's a Palestinian state repressed by a foreign ruler, King Abdullah, whose family was imported from Saudi Arabia by the British back in the 1920s. Here are some facts on Jordan:

* The current queen of Jordan is an Arab 'Palestinian'.

* Approximately half of Jordan's prime ministers since 1950 have been Arab 'Palestinians'.

* More than 2/3 of the Jordanian people are Arab 'Palestinians'.

* The majority of citizens residing in the capital of Amman are Arab 'Palestinians'.

* Arab 'Palestinians' constitute not less than one half of the members of the armed forces, according to the late King Hussein, as broadcast on Amman Radio February 3, 1973.

* The majority of other security forces are Arab 'Palestinians'.

* Jordan occupies 77% of the original Palestine Mandate (originally promised to the Jewish people). The population density of Jordan is less than 61 people per square mile leaving lots of room to absorb many more of their brethren and cousins.

Want to delve even deeper? Let's explore further. We all need to refresh our memory, as 'short-term syndrome' has taken over. Now for a little history lesson, for those who do not recall the reality of the past.

The British tried to placate the Arabs by giving them part of the land designated under the Palestine Mandate (originally allocated under the Balfour Declaration for the establishment of a Jewish homeland). Britain created an entirely new province by severing 77% of historic Palestine (and an additional 3% was also allocated to Syria), on the eastern bank of the Jordan River (some 35,000 square miles), and establishing the state of Transjordan.

Faisal, who had been King of Syria, was deposed by the French, so the British offered him the throne of Iraq, which he accepted. Faisal's brother Abdullah was installed as the new nation of Transjordan's ruler on April 1, 1921 (April Fool's Day), thereby completing the appeasement of Arab rulers.

During the Arab-Israeli war of 1948, in which nine Arab nations attacked Israel, they took control of the ancient biblical territories of Judea and Samaria (Jewish territory, which was "occupied" for nineteen years until 1967, when it was liberated and reconquered in yet another defensive war).

On April 24, 1950, Abdullah formally merged all of Arab-held Palestine with Transjordan and granted citizenship to all Arab residents and settlers (the vast majority of whom arrived the 1920s for economic reasons).

The Hashemite Kingdom was no longer only across the river so the prefix "Trans" (meaning "across") was dropped, and henceforth, the land became known as Jordan; i.e., Arab Palestine.

This is the royal decree and sentiments of two of the kings of Jordan.

"Palestine and Jordan are one..." said King Abdullah in 1948.

"The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan," said King Hussein of Jordan, in 1981.

Remember, Jordan is Palestine. Arab Palestine.

The PA only controls Area "A" which is about 3% of the total land area of the West Bank. Everyone knows this, and I expect you do, too. It's really not right that you should post the same irrelevancies all the time and take up valuable bandwidth.

Again, you are making transparent phony arguments. There are about 2 million non Jews and non Israelis living in the West Bank. They deserve respect, and basic human rights. Either they get it with their own state, or they get it in the one state that is becoming increasingly inevitable. Anything else is just Likudnik spam.

the population. Most of the population is concentrated in large cities, as with any nation. So, even if the Palestinians control 3% of the territory, they still have control over 90% of the Palestinian population, with authority to tax, arrest, and provide services for. The 90% also votes in Palestinian elections.

Also, you forget the large percent of territory in which there is JOINT control with Israeli and Palestinians policing together.

by the way, what you disagree with is not spam. Though, glad you had a chance to read what I wrote and educate yourself.

now, how about arguing for a state for the over 30 million kurds? You cry about 2 million palestinians, who already make up a majority of the population in Jordan (2/3 of the population), yet where are your crocodile tears for the 30 million kurds without a state? What about a state for the Basques? For the Corsicans? For the Chechens? Either advocate for everyone, in which case the world should be prepared for thousands of micro-states, or realize that national self-determination is simply not something that is universally applied, nor will it ever be.

pretend to be stupid to mask your antisemitism?

The Palestinian populations in both Gaza and the West Bank TRIPLED under Israeli rule from 1967 to 2006. The Israelis must be the worst people in the world to do genocide, because rather than kill the Palestinians, they somehow made their populations grow at exponential rates! Gaza has had one of the highest birth rates in the Arab world for decades. Honest, do you all even think before you post emotional nonsense?

Approx. figures:

West Bank 1967 - 598,637 2006 - 1,571,575 to 2 million

Gaza 1967 - 356,261 2006 - 963,028 to 1 million

The Kurds have a state? Really? Where is their seat at the UN? Where are their Kudish passports? Find me the independent Kurdish state on a map and you win a prize!

All I hear from you and Johnboy is opinion. Israel exploit foreign workers? Have you ever been to Israel? Worked with any of these people? They are pretty happy to have work. And, speaking of that, how is your treatment of Mexican migrant workers? How about your new Arizona law? How is any country's situation with illegal migrant workers different from each other? Stop holding some people to standards that don't exist.

By the way, the Palestinians do not need permits from Israel to build in area A in the west bank, where 55% of their population lives. They also can build in Area B where another 41% of their population lives. They cannot build in Area C, unless with an Israeli permit, where only 4% of West Bank Palestinians live. So, 96% of the Palestinian population only needs to ask their own government for permits to build houses. If they fail to get a permit, blame their own Palestinian leaders. This means they have 41% of the land to build on. To put it in other terms, they have about 2,500 km2 to freely build on, which is way more than they, or any other population, can even make productive use of.

That is Also WRONG. The majority of Israels are of Middle Eastern, Central Asian, and African descent.

and characterizes it. Is it too complex for you to understand?

1. South Africa -
a) the blacks were fellow citizens of South Africa
b) bantustans were places these blacks never set foot in, had no connection to, and were not recognized nations in any sense
c) the blacks did not want their own state in the bantustans
d) bantustans were created to exploit black labor easily
e) bantustans separated people by race

2. Israel -
a) the Palestinians are NOT citizens of Israel
b) They are under their own government control, are recognized as a nation with their own passports, observer status in the United Nations, their own para-military police force, taxation, economy, infrastructure, etc.
c) They already live in the area where they want their own state
d) the Palestinians, unlike the blacks want their own state in the west bank
e) Israel wants nothing to do with the palestinians or their labor, and since the second intifada has gladly substituted Palestinian workers for those from thailand and china.
f) Israel is not making a distinction based on race or religion. 20% of Israel's population is Arab and Muslim, and the majority of Israel's population is of Arab descent (Jews from Arab lands along with Israeli Arabs). It is a nationality distinction - two "countries" or nationalities fighting for the same land.

“Apartheid” is used in this case and elsewhere because it comes easily to hand: it is a lazy label for the complexities of the Middle East conflict. It is also used because, if it can be made to stick, then Israel can be made to appear to be as vile as was apartheid South Africa and seeking its destruction can be presented to the world as an equally moral cause.

Amosyarkoni,

You seem to lose your cool in the face of facts offered to you by Adda and Johnboy. Your reliance on insults indicates to me that they must have hit a nerve, since you seem to have a hard time finding an intelligent come back.

Clearly the Israeli government is very well informed about property rights. It suffices only to follow the intense diplomatic efforts of this government in the former Warsaw Treaty countries on behalf of Israeli citizens that lost properties to former Communist governments. I actually think Israel is entitled to do this, because those losses where demonstrably abusive.

My point is that Israel knows very well when something illegal or immoral was perpetrated on its citizens. It has a hard time recognizing when it does the same things to other people (read Palestinians).

Israel is beginning to look more an more like an Orwellian animal farm, where all people are equal, but some are more equal that others.

When are attacks against civilians "terror"? When we fire-bombed Tokyo in 1945? When Britain leveled Dresden? Israelis are colonizing Palestine illegally, taking water and the best land. Is it "terrorism" to kill those who in civilian clothes are taking over their land? Sure wish my moral faculties were developed enough to understand this.

flimsiest of people. However for all you sophomoric conspiracy nuts out there here is a report from Al Jazeera News explaining that HAMAS did the attack.

Palestinian security forces have swept through the West Bank, arresting more than 150 Hamas members, after the group's military wing claimed responsibility for killing four Israeli settlers, according to senior Palestinian security officials.

"Dozens of Hamas members have been arrested, mainly in [the] Hebron area and across the West Bank," the Palestinian security source said. "We are investigating if they have any links to the shooting attack. There will be more arrests."

The Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, the military wing of the Hamas movement, claimed responsibility for the attack on Tuesday, saying it would be the first in a "series of operations" in the West Bank.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/09/201091111314458758.html

This must be a field day for Israeli Intelligence Services - the opening of communication lines between the cells of the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades.

According to the Australian National Security website (for what it is worth)
-------------------
"Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades

They are divided into a number of independent and specialised cells. While the Brigades are an integral part of Hamas, they also operate independently and at times at odds with Hamas’ stated aims."
--------------------

From wikipedia (really for what it is worth)

--------------------
"The Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades operate on a model of independent cells and even high-ranking members are often unaware of the activities of other cells. This allows the group to consistently regenerate after member deaths."
--------------------

If the cells "operate independently" how does another cell know when it is a genuine Brigade cell that is speaking out and when it is not?

And when I say it must be a boon for Israeli Intelligence I am suggesting that the cells would have to open some lines of communication. Hamas MUST be a stirred up hive of busy bees right at this moment trying to confirm which cell did it.

So if a group of Apache Indians or Navajo Indians come and murder your family, your children, and all your friends, I guess it is "justifiable" as you are occupying their land?

How about after you leave your Texas Walmart and a few Mexicans come and shoot you and your family, then come back and shoot you in the heat a point-blank range (as in this attack) to make sure you are all dead. It should be justifiable under your logic, as you are occupying their land, which was stolen from them.

So if a group of Apache Indians or Navajo Indians come and murder your family, your children, and all your friends, I guess it is "justifiable" as you are occupying their land?

How about after you leave your Texas Walmart and a few Mexicans come and shoot you and your family, then come back and shoot you in the head at point-blank range (as in this attack) to make sure you are all dead. It should be justifiable under your logic, as you are occupying their land, which was stolen from them.

Umm....I'm NOT American. I know, I speak fluent English, so obviously I'm not from another country, right?

Guess, what? I'm Mexican. I'm descended from a mix of Spanish conquistadors and Mexican natives. There are still some people in Mexico who are mostly or entirely native, but very few. Still, I would not be a reasonable target for them because I'm of mixed ethnicities (most Mexicans are).

Quit making lazy assumptions and poor analogies.

If you forget, there never was a Palestinian state. The land was part of the ottoman empire, then the british mandate, then taken by Jordan, and now by Israel. I'd like to see the deed to the land (which you claim was stolen) that those innocent murdered Jews were on. Show me specifically whose house they "stole."

Also, in an article about the killing of Israeli civilians do you find it a must to link to unrelated instances of Israeli aggression as if to say 'yeah these Jews died, but it's not that bad because they were messing with the Palestinians as well'.

Also noting that we never see the converse from Steve. For instance, when the Israelis who themselves were brutally attacked in the flotilla ship defended themselves, in Steve's full throated condemnation of them he never tried to draw a moral equivalence to Palestinian violence (much less note that Israel's actions were in response and defending against violence). Or to the ever present Palestinian incitement, including that from Abbas' Palestinian authority, as he did here by linking these murders to some Rabbi's remarks.

The one-sidedness of Steve's postings on this subjects are truly astounding, and I agree with Brother Mouzoune that Steve's contempt for Israel really shines through in this piece. It is hard to reconcile posts like this one with the ostensible reason for making them - a concern for everyone in the region and for the US's well being. It strikes one that there is a deeper pathology at work here.

As Widespread Panic sang, "it makes sense to me." Actually, I believe that the only source of security for this country is for us to provide opportunities enough to keep those disenfranchised engaged and motivated to make the system work. But, that measure doesn't reflect too well on Israel does it? You can stimulate the Palestinian economy with American tax dollars, but that's no substitute for human, civil and property rights. I actually expect felons and other truly disenfranchised people to start shooting up this country. I believe they are justified. You can't expect the whipping boy to forever endure the lashes we dole out without reprisals. That IS what the Declaration of Independence states, and I can't argue.

"I was talking to a black man from Atlanta/Who said the time has come to take what's mine/And if I must bust some heads to achieve justice/Our righteous cause will well explain the crime"

You are the sophist who can't criticize your country. I've been very consistent with this, saying that Israel and the US are guilty of the same sin. However, the Native Americans' destruction, sadly, is a fait accompli. How dare you criticize America yet fail to see the flaw in your own eye?

Either your reading comprehension is poor, or you're a total sophist, grabbing at whatever strawman you can find. Go, read what I've written--all my critiques are consistently balanced between the US and Israel. One cannot find such balance in your commentary.

You really told him. Great substantive point. No one can argue with that logic.

Haha...so level-headed discussion on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is tantamount to right-wing zingers?

Seems like you really deserved Southern Dakota Methodist State U degree