Thursday, December 9, 2010 - 11:25 AM
Keeping up with Jeffrey Goldberg's errors is like trying to dam the Gulf Stream, and responding to his repeated smears is a mug's game. I suppose I could quote a bunch of snarky comments about him too, and we could have a nasty blogosopheric food fight for the entertainment of our readers. But I prefer to focus on the issues, instead of the name-calling that is J.G.'s stock-in-trade.
His latest silly sally is to chide me for my saying that there is no meaningful "Arab lobby" in Washington. As evidence, he points out that various Arab states have paid a lot of money to various public relations firms, in a rather transparent attempt to gain some influence in Washington. The question to ask is whether these activities produce "meaningful" influence on key foreign policy issues, especially when you compare them with the lobbying groups on the other side.
Once you ask that question, of course, his case collapses. Let's look at the vast influence that the "Arab lobby" has wielded in recent years.
1. It is undoubtedly the all-powerful Arab lobby that ensures that Israel gets $3-4 billion in economic and military aid each year, even when it does things that the United States opposes, like building settlements. And were it not for the Arab lobby, the United States would be putting a lot of pressure on Israel to sign the Non-Proliferation Treaty and come clean about its nuclear arsenal.
2. It was the vaunted Arab lobby that convinced President Bush to delay a U.N. ceasefire resolution during the Lebanon War of 2006, so that Israel could try to finish off Hezbollah and continue bombing civilian areas in Lebanon. Pressure from the Arab lobby also convinced Congress to pass a resolution backing Israel to the hilt, and to remove language from the original draft that called for both sides to "protect civilian life and infrastructure."
3. When Ambassador Charles Freeman was nominated to chair the National Intelligence Council in 2009, the vast Arab lobby promptly launched a successful smear campaign to deny him the post, running roughshod over his outnumbered and powerless defenders at the New Republic, Wall Street Journal, Atlantic Monthly, and Washington Post.
4. When Obama asked Israel to implement a settlement freeze in 2009, the Arab lobby promptly swung into action and drafted open letters warning the President not to put any pressure on Israel. These resolutions passed overwhelmingly in both Houses, another sign of the Arab lobby's political clout.
5. When Israel attacked Gaza in December 2008, the Arab lobby was there to prevent the U.S. from interfering. And when the Goldstone Report raised the issue of possible Israeli war crimes in that war, the Arab Lobby no doubt called the Obama administration and told it to condemn the report, which it promptly did.
6. Needless to say, the insidious power of the Arab lobby no doubt explains why we have a former employee of the "pro-Israel" Washington Institute for Near East Policy (and former head of the Jewish People's Policy Planning Institute) in a key role guiding U.S. Middle East policy. Aaron Miller was dead wrong when he said the United States acts as "Israel's lawyer"; the Arab lobby ensures that U.S. government officials constantly take the Arab side whenever disputes arise.
7. The long arm of the "Arab lobby" also shapes our public discourse, aided by the chorus of pro-Arab, pro-Palestinian, and pro-Muslim columnists and pundits at the Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, New Republic, and Atlantic Monthly. And you'd better not say anything critical of an Arab country or of Islam, or the Anti-Defamation League will denounce you and you might even lose your job.
8. And don't forget to sign up for the Arab Lobby's annual "Policy Conference" in Washington, where you will see a bevy of politicians from both parties lining up to proclaim their commitment to the "unshakeable" alliance between the United States and the Arab and Muslim world.
Obviously, none of these things happened because of the "Arab lobby," but the Israel lobby played a key role in all of them. In short, Goldberg's latest assertions don't even pass the giggle test. And if he wants to talk about money, let's consider campaign contributions. According to The Economist, between 1990 and 2004 pro-Israel political action committees gave nearly $57 million dollars to candidates and parties, while Arab-American and Muslim PACs gave slightly less than $700,000. Wow: that's some "Arab lobby!" And that's just the PAC money, not contributions by individuals.
Or we could discuss the role of Haim Saban, an Israel-American businessman who has said that "I'm a one-issue guy, and my issue is Israel." Saban has been the largest single contributor to the Democratic Party in recent years, and according to a profile by Connie Bruck in The New Yorker, Saban told a conference in Israel that there were "three ways to be influential in American politics … make donations to political parties, establish think tanks, and control media outlets." Gee, if I said something like that, Goldberg would probably say I was channeling the Protocols.
In short, despite the money that some Arab countries spend on PR firms, the "Arab lobby" is not a meaningful political force when it comes to the broad thrust of U.S. Middle East policy, and certainly not on issues affecting Israel. But you don't have to take my word for it. You could ask former President Bill Clinton, who said that AIPAC was "better than anyone at lobbying in this town," or former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, who called it "the most effective general-interest group … across the entire planet." Former Senator Fritz Hollings (D-SC) said upon his retirement that "you can't have an Israel policy other than what AIPAC gives you around here," and former Congressman Lee Hamilton (D-IN) who served for 32 years, said "there's no lobby group that matches it ... they're in a class by themselves." Or consider the words of the late Senator Barry Goldwater (R-AZ) who said "I was never put under greater pressure than by the Israeli lobby, nor has the Senate as a whole. It's the most influential crowd in Congress and America by far." Even a journalist named Jeffrey Goldberg once referred to AIPAC as a "leviathan among lobbies." The "Arab lobby" is Lilliputian by comparison.
And that's why the former head of AIPAC, Morris Amitay, once noted that "we rarely see [oil and corporate] interests lobbying on foreign policy issues. … in a sense, we have the field to ourselves." Or as AIPAC's former legislative director, Douglas Bloomfield, told the BBC in 2003: "AIPAC has one enormous advantage. It really doesn't have any opposition." Precisely.
EXPLORE:MEDIASPHERE, THE BLOGOSPHERE, OBAMA AND THE ISRAEL LOBBY, MIDDLE EAST, DEMOCRACY, ISRAEL/PALESTINE, OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, U.S. CONGRESS, U.S. FOREIGN POLICY
Arab Lobby, sort of, oil lobby, more clearly
The 'Arab' lobby may be weak. This does not preclude the possibility that a 'Saudi' lobby -- or a Qatari lobby -- exerts influence out of proportion to their geopolitical heft.
... or at least their geopolitical heft absent the half-drunk lakes of oil beneath them.
I'd also take issue with the idea that the oil lobby plays no role in international relations. It's just that much of its international impact ascends from efforts to shape the foundations of American political economy.
There is a meaningful Arab Lobby
They have the resources and put in the effort. Steve himself is a leading voice in the Arab "Lobby", if one uses the term to denote the big L expansive construct analogous to Steve's Israel "Lobby. He is certainly given a big enough platform to get his views out (books published, op-ed space in our leading newspapers, tv air time).
The inconvenient truth here (for Steve) is that people simply don't agree with him and them. The Arab lobby loses against the Israel lobby because they are fighting an uphill battle. It is so much easier to convince people of something with which they already agree, which explains the Israel lobby's success.
What you are saying is a stretch in most extreme sense. So if anyone disapproves with the influence that he Israel lobby exercises in the US (note the lowercase L - Walt already has discussed the nonsense around Lobby vs lobby) then they are a de facto agent of this far-reaching "Arab Lobby" that nobody (including yourself apparently) cannot seem to pin down?
Utter nonsense David - even for you.
The real picture of so-called "bi-naional" state
Prior to 1967, West Bank was part of Jordan, and Gaza was part of Egypt. Most of Jordan's population comprise of same Palestinians as those in West Bank. Queen Rai'na of Jordan, herself is a Palestinian.
It seems, a federation of Jordan-West Bank-Gaza, is far more constructive and palatable, then Bi-National state between Jews and Muslim-Arabs.
Just look at the table below where it compares the Palestinians with Jordan, Egypt & Israel Palestinians. Then the picture will be much lucid and palatable.
..............SUBJECT.....................................................................JORDAN.....EGYPT...ISRAEL
- Common Language with:.............................................................Yes............Yes...........No
- Common Religion with:...............................................................Yes............Yes...........No
- Common Customs with. ..............................................................Yes............Yes..........No
- Common Heritage with:...............................................................Yes............Yes...........No
- Percentage of Population identifies itself as “Palestinians”.....:...75%...........N/A..........0%
- Population density (per sq. km):.(*).............................................62.4...........79.............308.7
- Its Queen is a Palestinian:............................................................Yes.............No...........No
- The state which Palestinian leaders vowed to destroy:.................No.............No...........Yes
- The state most likely Pals will face LESS discrimination:...........Yes............Yes..........No
- Until 1967, Pals were part of these states:....................................Yes............Yes..........No
- Its founding leader (Arafat) was born in this country...................No.............Yes..........No
Now, if you would be a pragmatic and rational Palestinian. In which of one of these states would you prefer to live in peace and harmony.
And, as an unbiased observer, to which one of these states would you advise Pals to join.
That's a damn good pony, even if you call it "one trick"
This response is much more highly entertaining than a nasty blogosopheric food fight. Those are a dime a dozen. This is great stuff. I will definitely be working "silly sally" into my conversations for a while.
As an aside, the ability to provide source materials with links is truly awesome. This power alone makes the internet worth whatever negative effects it has.
Not really. Goldberg highlights that there is a professional
Arab lobby, with substantial resources at their fingertips, which they use to promote their own interests.
.
Walt likes to equate participation with scope and conspiracy.
.
Goldberg only highlighted lobbying firms
who lobby for a diverse group of clients on a wide range of issues. He didn't highlight any meaningful Arab version of AIPAC or WINEP. It's an obvious false equivalency
It's a no-trick pony NOrwegian
Walt's own arguments cannot stand up to serious criticism. He deletes what he cannot argue against as seen by the pulling of my 11 posts that rebut his argument, including quoting from his own works.
.
Sorry Neoleft, guess the professor won't let us come out and play.
Jacob, all you did was scream 'antisemetism' repeatedly
If you make posts that lack substance and are just name-calling, of course they will be deleted.
Yes the Saudis do have financial clout
it just hasn't been translated to political clout, which is why there is no evidence of the Arab Lobby in Washington distorting our foreign policy.
Jacob Blues: You, sir, are an a-hole
The first post on this thread was rightly deleted, and if history is any guide, and it is, then the other 10 were likely similar screeds. Just quoting someone's words doesn't prove you have a point. I've never seen your arguments stand up to debate.
sticks and stones Norweigan, sticks and stones
But the truth of the matter is all of my detailed responses, including footnoted quotes from Walt and Mearsheimer's own work, was deleted by the Prof. You can go and complain to him about that.
.
Apparently its the serious arguments that scare him.
Jacob, you're lying, I read all your posts that were deleted
There was nothing intelligent or substantive about them.
Also, if the first comment in the thread is deleted, the rest of the subcomments will automatically be deleted.
You have yet to make one intelligible point, you're nothing more than a troll trying to annoy people with empty comments. Congratulations, you're successful in one phase of life!
No trouble. What I did was scream anti-Semitism
And then backed up my argument with Walt's and Mearsheimer's own words. My analysis and claim all along stems directly from their work. As I stated to Neo, I originally read their working paper when it came out in 2006. Just this week, I re-read it again, followed by reading Walt & Mearsheimer's responsa that they published in December.
.
I stand by my original claim regardless of how Prof Walt takes it. I don't make such charges lightly, but I make them seriously.
.
I view "The Israel Lobby" as a modern day version of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Walt can dress up his argument any way he wants, but the reality is, the arguments he and Mearsheimer use, fall very near those claims.
Really Neo? Why then did President Roosevelt sign a security
treaty with Saudi Arabia back in the 1940's. Why have we sold them billions of dollars in military equipment? Why did we send 500,000 soldiers, and make a worldwide diplomatic push to save the Sauds from a possible invasion by Saddam Hussein back in 1990? Why did we follow that up with a huge air-base in the middle of the Kingdom for a decade until pushed out by al-Queda? Why did Prince Bandar have such close relationships with US Presidents for close to two decades?
.
I don't need to provide that answer, Walt does in his responsa. Page 16 . . . OIL. To quote " ... The Persian Gulf, by contrast, is a vital strategi region for the United States, because it contains a large percentage of the world's oil supply."
.
As such, Walt notes on page 12 of his responsa, that "We recognize tha tthe lobby was unable to prevent the United States from selling arms to key U.S. allies such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt,"
Of course trouble, my responses were all nonsense
Which is why the only things I see posted here are vindictive name calling, and not a single response to any of the arguments I raised.
.
A-hole, troll, liar, etc. That seems to be the level of argument raised by you and your peers.
Who's stopping you from making your argument Jacob?
"Walt's own arguments cannot stand up to serious criticism."
How would you know Jacob? You haven't posted a serious criticism to date.
"He deletes what he cannot argue against as seen by the pulling of my 11 posts that rebut his argument, including quoting from his own works."
I saw your quotes on the other thread Jacob. I hate to break it to you Jacob, but you seem to have missed the point. If you are going to use quotes, it helps that they support your argument.
You posted quotes, but didn't bother explain what they weer supposed to demonstrate. IN fact, the quotes were very uncontroversial.
"Apparently its the serious arguments that scare him."
Apparently no one has bothered explaining to you what a serious argument looks like.
How does a treaty prove lobbying Jacob?
"Why then did President Roosevelt sign a security treaty with Saudi Arabia back in the 1940's."
I fail to see how a treaty is supposed to prove that there is a Saudi Lobby. Treaties are a product of mutual consent.
"Why have we sold them billions of dollars in military equipment?"
To make money. Israel hasn't paid for a thing we've given them. In fact, Israel steals US weapons technology (or back engineers it) and sells it to China.
" Why did we send 500,000 soldiers, and make a worldwide diplomatic push to save the Sauds from a possible invasion by Saddam Hussein back in 1990?"
1. Because we wanted to attack Iraq.
2. There was no possible invasion by Saddam Hussein. In order to get the Saudis to agree to a war, Dick Cheney showed the Saudis doctored satellite photos of non existent tank battalions. on the Iraq/Saudi border
3. We got the Saudis to pay for it.
4. We got to build bases in Saudi Arabia
"Why did we follow that up with a huge air-base in the middle of the Kingdom for a decade until pushed out by al-Queda?"
The same reason we have 700 other bases throughout the world. Because we wanted bases there.
"Why did Prince Bandar have such close relationships with US Presidents for close to two decades?"
Because they were in business together.
.
"I don't need to provide that answer, Walt does in his respons. Page 16"
Right, so the anwer is that we want to control the oil, not because of an imaginary Rab lobby.
.
"As such, Walt notes on page 12 of his responsa, that "We recognize tha tthe lobby was unable to prevent the United States from selling arms to key U.S. allies such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt,""
That's hardly controversial. Why should a lobby for a country that receives it's weapons at taxpayer expense get to veto the biggest arms sale in history to a country that wants to pay us for them?
Bear in mind that the lobby managed to stall this sale for months while it was being deliberated in Congress.
Your arguments are easy to debunk Jacob
Because you clearly haven't thought them through.
You fail to see Neo because you’re asking the wrong questions
The original comment made was that the Sauds translated their oil resources into power. That power came in the form of a security treaty with the United States, and the most powerful use of that treaty was when the Sauds felt threatened by Saddam Hussein in 1990 after he invaded and conquered Quwait. Go back to 1940, and Saudi Arabia was a speck of sand, its value, seen by both the British Empire and the Americans was the black gold beneath.
.
Your argument appears to be that unless there is a formal “Lobby” than there is no lobbying. Guess that’s a limitation of your vision, but it’s still the Sauds leveraging their resource to benefit their own interests.
.
Arms sales to make money. Interesting, but still a secondary concern when you consider the geo-political impact of these sales. If making money was the only case to be made, than the US would have sold Lebanon military systems up the wazoo and then some. It would not have made an argument to Israel when it had military sales planned with China. People would not have made a stink about France selling warships to Russia and China wouldn’t have blown a gasket when the US sold Taiwan a fleet of Aegis destroyers. The reality is, military sales are more than just about the hard economic dollars. So when the US puts together a $60.0 billion weapons package with the Sauds, it plants a flag in the sand that this nation is (supposedly) in our sphere of influence.
.
“In fact, Israel steals US weapons technology (or back engineers it) and sells it to China.” Of course they do Neo. Which is why all Israeli military export sales that include US technology need to be approved by the US government, which in this case, put the kibosh on the sales to China. Try again.
.
I’m not going to rebut your Iraqi claims because you seem to be making empty attacks. I would love to see proof as to why you believe we went to war with Iraq for no good reason. Same thing for the Saudi bases. It’s amusing to see you complain about vapid arguments and yet read about a fantasy world set up here.
.
Glad to see you agree with me about the oil and its ability to generate political power for the Sauds. It’s also amusing to see you get flumoxed about Walt’s discussion of the arms sales. Apparently now its ‘hardly controversial’.
JACOB, you only see what you want to see
And as you might have noticed, you are the only one who sees it.
"That power came in the form of a security treaty with the United States, and the most powerful use of that treaty was when the Sauds felt threatened by Saddam Hussein in 1990 after he invaded and conquered Quwait."
False.
It is common knowledge that the US goaded Saddam into invading Kuwait, and wanted a fight with him. As i pointed out (as you ignored), the US only convinced the Saudis into supporting (and financing) the war after showing them fake satellite photographs depicting Iraqi tank battalion amassed on the Iraq/Saudi borer.
In fact, the Bush (41) Administration only managed to convince Congress to back the war when they colluded with the Kuwaitis and hired a PR firm to train the daughter of the Kuwait Ambassador into giving the bogus story about the babies in the incubators.
"Go back to 1940, and Saudi Arabia was a speck of sand, its value, seen by both the British Empire and the Americans was the black gold beneath."
"Your argument appears to be that unless there is a formal “Lobby” than there is no lobbying."
No, my argument is that there is no evidence to show that any lobbying has taken place. The Saudi's aren't pulling string in Washington, we're the ones pulling the strings in Riyadh. The Saudis rely entirely on our government to keep them in power.
You're simply trying to sell a conspiracy theory that has no connection to reality.
.
"Arms sales to make money. Interesting, but still a secondary concern when you consider the geo-political impact of these sales."
Not at all.
"If making money was the only case to be made, than the US would have sold Lebanon military systems up the wazoo and then some."
False. The reason we haven't is because:
a) Lebanon hasn't got that kind of money to spend on weapons and
b) the Israeli Lobby opopsed sales of arms to Lebanon. In fact, right after the August borer skirmish, Congress pulled the weapons sales to Lebanon because Lebanon wouldn't agree to
the condition that they were never to use US supplied weapons to resist an Israeli attack.
"It would not have made an argument to Israel when it had military sales planned with China."
Rubbish. The US blocked an arms deal that Israel was doing with China because it was publicly reported that the deal would include US technology. Of course, Israel backed down and then did it anyway.
"So when the US puts together a $60.0 billion weapons package with the Sauds, it plants a flag in the sand that this nation is (supposedly) in our sphere of influence."
Not really. The deal would have been a favor by the Saudis to the US arms industry, which is probably doing it tough these days. The US dollar doesn't buy much these days. Gates was criticizing Europe earlier this year because they weren't spending enough on arms - obviously he';d been sent on a mission to drum up sales for the arms industry.
60 billion is pocket change to the Saudis but is a tidy sum for Lockheed Martin.
.
"I’m not going to rebut your Iraqi claims because you seem to be making empty attacks."
No, the reason you won't rebut them is because you can't.
"I would love to see proof as to why you believe we went to war with Iraq for no good reason."
The reasons are varied. Saddam would never have gone into Iraq and risk being attacked by the US if he didn't believe he had permission from Washington. April Glasby, US ambassador to Iraq at the time, was reported to have told Iraq that the US was not interested in the Iraq/Kuwait dispute and wanted to part of it. The news even reported that this was the message from James Baker at the time.
Secondly, Saddam was prepared to negotiate a withdrawl from Kuwait, bu we rejected it.
I'd say it comes down to the fact that Saddam had outlived his usefulness and Bush 41 decided he needed a war to improve his approval ratings back home.
"Same thing for the Saudi bases."
The Saudis would never have agreed to US bases on their soil absent a perceived threat. Indeed, the bases were a source of friction and were destabilizing for the Saudis. They were already asking the US to leave before 911.
"Glad to see you agree with me about the oil and its ability to generate political power for the Sauds."
Again, you seem to reading one thing and making unrelated conclusions. The oil lobby is actually home grown and revolves around Exxon and Co. There is no Arab lobby to speak of, so don;t flatter yourself, you certainly don't have me flummoxed.
In case you haven't noticed, no one is buying your argument.
My argument is that there is no evidence to show that any lobbying has taken place.
Of course not, the Saudis have no access to the power centers of the United States, which is why within days of 9/11, while every airplane in the US was grounded, the Saudis were able to fly a jetplane full of passengers, including members of the bin-Laden family, out of the United States. No, no lobbying at all.
.
If the issue was money, and the Sauds are backing Lebanon (the non-Hizballah part), then I believe that if the US was truly going to sell arms to Lebanon, that the funds would have somehow appeared. That is, if this was a case purely about the money. Same thing for the arms sales to China, at worst, the US would have demanded a cut of the profits that the Chinese were paying for the weapons. Same thing with the US sales of the Aegis destroyers to Taiwan. China wouldn’t have such an issue with them.
.
As for Congress, they were concerned that the weapons would fall into the hands of Hizballah a US enemy.
.
I’m not going to rebut the Iraqi arguments Neo because all you do is make some empty claims. Come up with something more concrete than your opinion.
.
What Jacob - a fantastic analysis
"(the non-Hizballah part)" -- seriously - you expect ANYONE to take you seriously?
"(the non-Hizballah part)" - What a joke.
OK Base, why don't you explain Lebanon's political system
and power makeup for the audiance at home. Yes, the non-Hizballah part. Try learning a bit about Lebanese politics and its history before snorting into your computer.
Your argument are becomming increasingly irratinoal Jacob
Of course not, the Saudis have no access to the power centers of the United States, which is why within days of 9/11, while every airplane in the US was grounded, the Saudis were able to fly a jetplane full of passengers, including members of the bin-Laden family, out of the United States. No, no lobbying at all.
Actualyl, it was not within days, it was on the very day of 9/11 that the Saudi's were given permission to leave. As Rochard Clarke (who cleared the planes to leave) testified, he was given the all clear that the FBI had vetted the passengers in question.
.
If the issue was money, and the Sauds are backing Lebanon (the non-Hizballah part), then I believe that if the US was truly going to sell arms to Lebanon, that the funds would have somehow appeared.
The Saudis aer not backing Lebanon, but Sunni Johadist groups linked to Al Qaeda, who they hoped would be able to bring down Hezbollah.
That is, if this was a case purely about the money. Same thing for the arms sales to China, at worst, the US would have demanded a cut of the profits that the Chinese were paying for the weapons.
On the contrary. For the US to have demanded a cut of the profits, they would have had to aknowledge that the Israelis had violated agreements with the US not to do so. The same goes for the US policy of not aknowldgeing Israel's nucler weapons; as soon as they do, they are legally required to cease provicing any more wepoans to Israel.
Same thing with the US sales of the Aegis destroyers to Taiwan. China wouldn’t have such an issue with them.
Why wouldn't China have an issue with the US sales of the Aegis destroyers to Taiwan? The sale is clearly a provocation to China.
As for Congress, they were concerned that the weapons would fall into the hands of Hizballah a US enemy.
False. Firstly, Hezbollah is not a US enemy and secondly, Hezbollah has never stolen arms from the Lebanese military. The US was prepared to continue providing arms to Lebanon so long as they agreed not to use them in conflicts with Israel. Had Lebanon agreed, the sale would have taken place.
I’m not going to rebut the Iraqi arguments Neo because all you do is make some empty claims. Come up with something more concrete than your opinion.
None of it was my opinion. You're not going to rebut my argument because you know you can't.
.
There is no Hezbollah part Jacob
Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government, like it or not.
Neoleft.
How the hell would you know the affect of the Saudi lobby on our foreign policy?. Is that another of your hip shoot anti-Israeli comments.?
Are you oblivious that, during his 8 years presidency, GWB was in the pocket of Prince Bandar who was the Saudi Ambassador in US?. We have seen the type of the Saudi leverage on Us right after the 9/11, where 15 of the 19 homicide thugs were of Saudi Nationals.
How about the fact that, no US administration have ever publicly condemned Saudi complacent with wealthy Saudi wahabis funding the Al Qaeda against us around the world and here in US.
Who is more credible from an American standpoint: a former Israeli Army prison guard who is emotionally obsessed with the Israeli interest or a Harvard University professor of political science who is focused like a laser beam on the rational pursuit of the American interest? No contest.
Will Jeffrey Goldberg ever come to an understanding of the error of his ways? Possibly. Every now and then there are glimmers of sanity in his posts.
Regarding Jacob Blues: does anyone have any doubt about where he's coming from?
I'm coming from the same place I always have Sean
Walt's and Mearsheimer's arguments are a modern day version of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. My argument stands as it did the first time I read their working paper, and does so again after re-reading it, and then, thanks to Neo-left, reading their 'responsa' to some of their critics.
You are coming from a place to the far right of Jeffrey Goldberg -- from a hellish morass of extreme ethno-religious nationalism and xenophobia which compels you to attack and smear anyone who doesn't buy into the basic assumptions of your irrational cult. Good luck with that.
The more pro-Israel militants like yourself attack Americans and Europeans, the more you undermine Israel and threaten the continued existence of the Zionist experiment. You are on a self-destructive course, and it's a safe that the majority of Jews around the world will have no interest in following you over the cliff.
and it’s amusing to declare which wing of the political spectrum I’m coming from based on essentially, nothing, aside from my critique of Stephen Walt.
.
Take that one step further, and I can see where you are coming from based on your claim that “pro-Israel militants”, are neither American nor European. But that’s OK, as it adds weight to my argument that Walt’s and Mearsheimer’s thesis attempt to portray American Jews as a fifth-column seditious cabal. It’s even more amusing to see a nation state continued to be declared an ‘experiment’ over sixty years after its’ founding. But hey, that’s just the type of guy you are.
Attacks on Americans and Europeans by pro-Israel militants
Jacob,
You really don't get the point that nasty attacks on Americans and Europeans (from heads of state on down) are destroying Israel's relations with the Western democratic world? Well, just keep it up and watch what happens. Israel's relations with nearly the entire world are already at the breaking point.
Jacob Blues: Israel's slide into the abyss
You wrote: "Take that one step further, and I can see where you are coming from based on your claim that “pro-Israel militants”, are neither American nor European."
That's not what I said. Many pro-Israel militants are Americans and Europeans by citizenship, but they are polarizing their fellow Americans and Europeans against themselves and against Israel with their endless torrent of vicious attacks in defense of indefensible Israeli policies.
How crazy would one have to be to believe that attacking Americans and Europeans with the same fanatical ferocity that one directs against Arab and Muslim nations would be anything but disastrous for Israel?
Israel is gradually slipping into a state of maximum tension and conflict with the entire world. Verbal abuse of the kind that you are in habit of dishing out has helped to produce this situation. Keep it up.
Polarization comes after one is declared an anathma Sean, this
is my response to Walt's and Mearshimer's screed.
.
You imply that anyone who is pro-Israel is an outsider, and threatening ‘real’ Americans and Europeans.
.
Let’s keep this on the level. As I originally stated, Walt’s and Mearsheimer’s arguments are against the “Israel Lobby”, not Israel. As for the tension, sorry, but the world where Jews roll over and die so that we won’t cause a fuss and disturb ‘our betters’ is over.
Actually Sean, Walt is pretty shallow
I posted 11 comments on this thread, all debating Walt's arguments point by point, including quoting from his own work.
.
Unfortunately, as you can see, such 'free speech' is too controversial for the good professor to let anyone else see.
.
So much for Walt's professed ability to constructively debate the issue.
Disctingtion without a difference Jaboc
"Let’s keep this on the level. As I originally stated, Walt’s and Mearsheimer’s arguments are against the “Israel Lobby”, not Israel."
The Lobby, AIPAC in particular, are simply arms of the Likud party, so what goes for the lobby goes for Israel.
"As for the tension, sorry, but the world where Jews roll over and die so that we won’t cause a fuss and disturb ‘our betters’ is over."
Yes it is which is a good thing. The world where Jews are being persecuted is also over, as much as you hate to accept it.
There's nothign controversial about your argumente Jacob
They're ignored because they are distortions, ad hominems and straw men.
Your references to Walt's work have not even been first, hand, but recycled from your Hasbara mother ship. I have challenged you to cite the page number of the quotes and you refused to do so. On other quotes, you tried to argue that Walt was saying something completely unrelated to the test.
The problem for you Hasbarats is that you can;t make the argument based on what Walt and Meareshimer have said in their book, but base your argument on what you believe it means.
.
"Unfortunately, as you can see, such 'free speech' is too controversial for the good professor to let anyone else see."
Your free speech has never been curtailed, which is why you are free to complain about it.
I'm going to try this again Neo.
No Neo, Walt and Mearsheimer define the lobby as follows “The core of the Lobby is comprised of American Jews who make a significant effort in their daily lives to bend U.S. foreign policy so that it advances Israel’s interests”. That’s taken from their working paper titled “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy” March 2006, RWP06-11, page 13.
I’ll repost my earlier comments to Max as follows:
In addition to my post right above yours Max, I’ll add the following:
Walt’s claim that “there are Jewish senators and congressmen who work to make U.S. foreign policy support Israel’s interests.” (pg 16)
.
“The bottom line is that AIPAC, which is a de facto agent for a foreign government, has a stranglehold on the U.S. Congress.” (pg 17)
.
“The Lobby also has significant leverage over the Executive branch. That power derives in part from the influence Jewish voters have on presidential elections….Because they matter in close elections, Presidential candidates go to great lengths not to antagonize Jewish voters.” (pg 17)
.
In their section titled “Manipulating the Media”, Walt & Mearsheimer state the following “In addition to influencing government policy directly, the Lobby strives to shape public perceptions about Israel and the Middle East. It does not want an open debate on issues involving Israel, because an open debate might cause Americans to question the level of support they currently provide.” (pg 19).
Again, all quotes come from Walt and Mearsheimer’s own paper.
.
.
Let’s examine these two points. First, it removes Jews from the political process, equating their participation in American democracy with a conspiracy to jeopardize the safety of “REAL” Americans. They then go on to argue that this is also done by a sinister plot through essentially ‘mind control’, by manipulating what these real ‘non-Jewish’ Americans hear, see, and read. This power, results in a fear-factor by the leaders of the nation, right up to the US Presidency, who fear to ‘antagonize’ this small group of outsiders.
Don't blame me Neo, I did what you asked.
If my comments were ignored Neo, then they would have been left up on the blog without incident. Fact is, my responses, which included Walt’s own work, was what was deleted. As I stated above to Norweigan, you can take it up with the professor and ask him why he was so scared to keep the quotes and critique published.
.
In my original post, I noted that not only did I re-read their original working paper, with my notes from four years ago, but then, thanks to you, read their response published in December.
.
The reality is, Walt’s thesis is that American Jews, “jeopardize U.S. security” (pg 1). Walt states that ‘The Lobby’, has managed to divert U.S. policy far from that the American national interest is. This “situation, has no equal in American political history.” (pg 1).
Again Jacob, your argument are not remotely connected to these
quotes.
Let’s me help you understand.
“First, it removes Jews from the political process, equating their participation in American democracy with a conspiracy to jeopardize the safety of “REAL” Americans.”
That is a blatant distortion and lie Jacob. American democracy encapsulates much more than foreign policy. Indeed, Jewish people have taken the lead in terms of civil rights etc. and been recognised for their contributions.
Influencing foreign policy however, is an entirely different matter. What you are your fellow propagandists can't get your heads around is the fact that W&M state emphatically, that what the Lobby is doing is perfectly legal. The argument they are making is that while it is legal, it is contrary to US interests.
Like it or not, but Bin Laden stated himself that among his grievances was unconditional US support for Israel in the I/P conflict.
W&M are 100% correct in this regard.
“They then go on to argue that this is also done by a sinister plot through essentially ‘mind control’, by manipulating what these real ‘non-Jewish’ Americans hear, see, and read.”
This is not the first time you have used the term ‘mind control’, in spite of the fact that this term appears nowhere in the book. In other word,s you are making up a false argument, which is not supported by any facts.
“This power, results in a fear-factor by the leaders of the nation, right up to the US Presidency, who fear to ‘antagonize’ this small group of outsiders.”
This is common knowledge. Admiral Thomas Moorer, former Chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff conformed this:
"I've never seen a President – I don't care who he is – stand up to them [the Israelis]. It just boggles the mind. They always get what they want. The Israelis know what is going on all the time. I got to the point where I wasn't writing anything down. If the American people understood what a grip those people have got on our government, they would rise up in arms. Our citizens certainly don't have any idea what goes on."
I'm not blaming you Jacob, I'm trying to help you.
If you insist on defaming W&M (which is all you have done so far) , then your comments deserve to be deleted.
As we have seen, you are not even trying to make an honest argument. You are citing quotes from W&M and trying to convince the rest of us that they mean something entirely different to what the text tells us.
Try to make an argument without lying Jacob. Walt and Meareshimer haver NEVER said that American Jews, “jeopardize U.S. Security”. You're being deliberately dishonest and lying.
“Walt states that ‘The Lobby’, has managed to divert U.S. policy far from that the American national interest is. This “situation, has no equal in American political history.””
That is absolutely true, as illustrated by Admiral Thomas Moorer, former Chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff
Jacob, you just listed a bunch of quotes that don't make a point
You are using circular logic to arrive at a conclusion that isn't there.
It is the sole purpose for the existence of ANY lobby to influence public and gov't opinion in their desired course of action. Take the NRA, they have a stated position of restricting gun control laws. They do this buy endorsing congressional candidates that share their views, write op-eds, hold conferences, discuss their views with elected officials, and even draft their views on legislation to serve as talking points and be debated. According to you, this amounts to 'mind control,' which is pure nonsense. It isn't a conspiracy to say that an influential lobbying group that fights against the restriction of firearm sales to convicts is bad for America.
The Israel lobby is no different. Do you deny the existence and actions of groups like AIPAC? Can you refute any of the 8 points Walt listed above? Your circular reasoning is filling your head with the idea that criticism of groups that lobby for misguided policy with Israel is racist against Jews. Regardless, you still can't make an effective argument against any of Walt's 8 points, which is why you resorted to smear attacks.
You have now made at least 11 comments complaining about how your 11 comments were deleted. Give it a rest and don't flatter yourself that you presented any embarrassing evidence of your baseless claims
You don't offer understanding Neo
Sorry Neo, but it’s not a lie. Walt and Mearsheimer didn’t write a political paper on how other ethnic groups jeopardize American Security. They wrote it about the Jews. Walt and Mearsheimer’s paper discuss how this group that threatens American security and makes it a target for violence uses its presence in domestic politics to manipulate the nation, both its leadership and citizens. In short, Walt and Mearsheimer make the argument that the presence of American Jews threatens the United States and its non-Jewish citizens due to their actions. That’s a prescription for removing them from the political process.
.
No Neo, Walt and Mearsheimer make the claim that Jews threaten the republic. They then go on to argue that Jews do this through manipulating the political process, through money and threats. They stated quite openly that Jews “Manipulate the Media” to the point that an honest debate on the subject cannot be held. They then add that the actions of ‘the Lobby’ threaten not only the physical well-being of the US, but its moral stance as well. The argument of the legality of this process is being used to show the reader how Jews are gaming the system to put their non-Jewish neighbors at risk.
.
As for al-Queda, is the direct descendent of Qutb’s philosophy, and bent on an over-reaching goal of global jihad. Its’ aim was to rise above petty national groups to create a global ummah. To that end, its primary two arguments were that the Sauds rejected al-Queda’s support in fighting Saddam Hussein, and then defiling holy Saudi soil with the presence of Americans, both to defend the kingdom, and then to remain there occupying the nation with military bases. Israel, at best, comes in well below that. Indeed Osama’s concern for the Palestinians seemed quite distant when Kuwait threw out 300,000 Palestinian workers and their families after getting rid of Saddam as payback for Arafat’s support in 1990.
.
Here’s the other thing Walt, Mearsheimer, and you seem to miss if you’re going down the path of Israel as a catalyst for al-Queda to attack. During the years of 1994 through 2001, when al-Queda was growing in power, and attacking US targets in Africa and Yemen, Israel and the Palestinians were at the peak of the Oslo process. The US was in high gear bringing the parties together first on the White House lawn to sign the Oslo accords, and then later at the Wye plantation to hand Hebron over to the control of the Palestinian Authority. Also during that time, the United States went and attacked Serbia, to defend Bosnian Muslims from slaughter. You would think that if al-Queda was going to use Israel to justify attacking America, the timing of it left it with somewhat large gaps in its logic.
.
As for the mind-control statement, I’m using it in conjunction with Walt and Mearsheimer’s claim that Jews are manipulating the media to quash and legitimate debate. Walt and Mearsheimer make the claim that without the lobby, Americans would be able to see the Arab Israeli conflict for what it really is when Jews are not suppressing the ‘truth’ as they see it. To me, it’s their variation on mind control.
.
“This power, results in a fear-factor by the leaders of the nation, right up to the US Presidency, who fear to ‘antagonize’ this small group of outsiders.”
Admiral Moorer’s quote is pretty empty on its own.
No Neo, not defaming, rebutting.
That Walt’s followers choose to view their comments through rose colored glasses are their own choices. Perhaps I might believe different if someone showed me something other than insults. Your hasbarist comment above the latest of the lot.
.
The reality is, no one, not Walt, not you, nor any of the other posters were able to discuss the quotes or commentary in Walt’s work.
.
Indeed, you cannot even debate the actual quotes once I post them, rather relying on the sharp response of “you’re lying”.
.
Walt’s and Mearsheimer’s full quote is this “U.S. support for Isarel . . . has inflamed Arab and Islamic opinion and jeopardized U.S. Security.” “Why has the United States been willing to set aside its own security in order to advance the interests of another state?” “the overall thrust of U.S. policy in the region is due almost entirely to U.S. domestic politics , and especially the activities of the “Israel Lobby”. “…no lobby has managed to divert U.S. foreign policy as far from what the American national interest would otherwise suggest”.
.
Page 1 of The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy; Walt & Mearsheimer; March 2006, Faculty Research Working Paper; RWP06-011.
.
I go on “The core of the Lobby is compromised of American Jews” ibid, page 13.
.
Let me know where you think this is lying.
No Trouble, according to Walt, its mind control
Yes, lobbying happens all the time, its one of the lubricants that make a representative democracy work.
.
What you don't see though is, professors lining up to decry the participation of a group of Americans in the process for any other lobby the way Walt and Mearsheimer cry about the threat of American Jews.
.
Indeed, to Walt and Mearsheimer, AIPAC, is only a single cog in the great "Lobby" machine.
.
As for the eight points, I did rebut many of them, and am not going to waste my time recreating my arguments after seeing the first effort wiped, and not a single honest argument to any of them.
It's just that your thesis doesn't hold water.
For a start, yes you are lying. Walt and Mearsheimer NEVER argued that any ethnic groups jeopardized American Security. They referred to "some Jews", not the Jewish population. They have never used the term "the Jews".
Walt and Mearsheimer’s paper refers to a small group of individuals, not an entire ethnicity. Nor did they suggest that the group itself threatens American security, but that the lobby is endorsing policies that threatens American security
It's a blatant lie to suggest that Walt and Mearsheimer even suggest the "presence of American Jews" threatens the United States.
So to conclude, Walt and Mearsheimer have NEVER made the case that "Jews" threaten the republic, and no quotation from their book even suggests this.
You're lies are shameless and juvenile.
Now that we've established that Walt and Mearsheimer have never referred to "Jews" colectively, let's move on to addressing the rest of your lies.
“They then go on to argue that Jews do this through manipulating the political process, through money and threats.”
Correction: They argue that individuals do this through manipulating the political process, through money and threats.
“They stated quite openly that Jews “Manipulate the Media” to the point that an honest debate on the subject cannot be held.”
Correction: They argue that individuals “Manipulate the Media” to the point that an honest debate on the subject cannot be held.
“They then add that the actions of ‘the Lobby’ threaten not only the physical well-being of the US, but its moral stance as well.”
Walt and Mearsheimer are correct.
“The argument of the legality of this process is being used to show the reader how Jews are gaming the system to put their non-Jewish neighbors at risk.”
False. The argument they made is that the lobby is acting legally, but distorting our foreign policy to the detriment of our interests.
“To that end, its primary two arguments were that the Sauds rejected al-Queda’s support in fighting Saddam Hussein, and then defiling holy Saudi soil with the presence of Americans”
False. It has 5 primary arguments, which Bin Laden laid out in his 1996 fatwa against the US
1.Presence of US bases in Saudi Arabia
2.Unconditional support the US gives to Israel.
3.The support of dictators and tyrants in the Arab world
4.The brutal sanctions against Iraq
Here’s the other thing Walt, Mearsheimer, and you seem to miss if you’re going down the path of Israel as a catalyst for al-Queda to attack.
“During the years of 1994 through 2001, when al-Queda was growing in power, and attacking US targets in Africa and Yemen, Israel and the Palestinians were at the peak of the Oslo process.”
A pathetic argument. The US was still in Saudi Arabia, still supporting dictators, still killing Iraqi children through sanctions. Your argument is that Al Qaeda should have forgotten all that just because of a half hearted peace effort?
Please!!
“As for the mind-control statement, I’m using it in conjunction with Walt and Mearsheimer’s claim that Jews are manipulating the media to quash and legitimate debate.”
You're lying either way. Mind control and quashing and legitimate debate and not even related. Your simply using hysteria to make a baseless argument and for the record, Walt and Mearsheimer never claimed that “Jews are manipulating the media”.
“Walt and Mearsheimer make the claim that without the lobby, Americans would be able to see the Arab Israeli conflict for what it really is when Jews are not suppressing the ‘truth’ as they see it. To me, it’s their variation on mind control.”
No, it's not, but there is ample proof that legitimate debate has been quashed.
In 1952, Time magazine published this piece, which illustrates how far the Lobby has managed to manipulate reporting since then:
“The word “American” no longer has a good sound in that part of the world [the Middle East]. To catch the Jewish vote in the U.S., President Truman in 1946 demanded that the British admit 100,000 Jewish refugees to Palestine, in violation of British promises to the Arabs. Since then, the Arab nations surrounding Israel have regarded that state as a U.S. creation, and the U.S., therefore, as an enemy. The Israeli-Arab war created nearly a million Arab refugees, who have been huddled for three years in wretched camps. These refugees, for whom neither the U.S. nor Israel will take the slightest responsibility, keep alive the hatred of U.S. Perfidy.
“No enmity for the Arabs, no selfish national design motivated the clumsy U.S. support of Israel. The American crime was not to help the Jews, but to help them at the expense of the Arabs. Today, the Arab world fears and expects a further Israeli expansion. The Arabs are well aware that Alben Barkley, Vice President of the U.S., tours his country making speeches for the half-billion-dollar Israeli bond issue, the largest ever offered to the U.S. public. Nobody, they note bitterly, is raising that kind of money for them.”
Crying anti Semtism is not a rebuttal
And that's your entire thesis.
“The reality is, no one, not Walt, not you, nor any of the other posters were able to discuss the quotes or commentary in Walt’s work.”
I have and I have demonstrated that your argument is rubbish. Your argument has no relation to the quotes you provided.
.
“Indeed, you cannot even debate the actual quotes once I post them, rather relying on the sharp response of “you’re lying”.”
False. I read the quotes you provided and then read what you believed the quotes meant and deduced that your claims were false.
.
“Walt’s and Mearsheimer’s full quote is this “U.S. support for Isarel . . . has inflamed Arab and Islamic opinion and jeopardized U.S. Security.””
Yes, and this is supported by Truman’s Ambassador Mark Etheridge to the Lausanne Conference.
““Since we gave Israel birth we are blamed for her belligerence and her arrogance and for the cold-bloodedness of her attitude toward refugees…what I can see is an abortion of justice and humanity to what I do not want to be a midwife… Israel must accept responsibility….her
attitude toward refugees is morally reprehensible….Her position as conqueror demanding more does not make for peace.”
–Quote from former Time Magazine’s Jerusalem Correspondent Donald
Neff’s book, “Fifty Years of Israel”, p.79 1957:
“Let me know where you think this is lying.”
It's not lying, nor was there any reference to “mind control”, “the Jews”, or “all Jews”. Needless to say, none of these quotes has anything to do with your argument, let alone support it.
No mind control mentioned anywhere my W&M
"Yes, lobbying happens all the time, its one of the lubricants that make a representative democracy work."
.
More like a cancer that we tolerate.
"What you don't see though is, professors lining up to decry the participation of a group of Americans in the process for any other lobby the way Walt and Mearsheimer cry about the threat of American Jews."
Absolutely false.
Walt and Mearsheimer have not decried the participation of any group of Americans, in fact they have argued that what this group is doing is perfectly legitimate. What they have argued is that the policies that this special interest group is pushing for undermine our national interests.
Some would make the same case about the gun lobby.
.
"As for the eight points, I did rebut many of them, and am not going to waste my time recreating my arguments after seeing the first effort wiped, and not a single honest argument to any of them."
Given your miserable and half-hearted effort, I would assume those 8 rebuttals were equally shallow and unsubstantiated.
You really need to think your arguments through next time.
Which part of Walt’s quote did you not read Neo?
Walt and Mearsheimer state quite bluntly, that the core of ‘the Lobby’ is made up of American Jews. That’s a direct quote from their work. That argument, that American Jews, directly contributed to increased threats of violence is repeatedly repeatedly in his paper. Reread the quote from the section titled “Influencing the Executive” where Walt and Mearsheimer describe how the President doesn’t want to “antagonize this group”. (page 17) A voting population is certainly an ethnic group and not a ‘select group of individuals’.
.
Walt and Mearsheimer directly make the argument that it is the Lobby that is threatening the US. Hell, their book is entitled “The Israel Lobby”, not Israel. Walt and Mearsheimer directly say that it is the actions of the Lobby that is manipulating both the US Federal Government and the minds of American citizens. Actions such as voting, lobbying Congress, using the media, making political donations; all actions of ‘the Lobby’, not Israel.
.
I’ll quote from the working paper again under the section, What Is The Lobby: “We use “the Lobby” as a convenient short-hand term for the loose coalition of individuals and organizations who actively work to shape U.S. foreign policy in a pro-Israel direction.” (page 13)
.
By their own words, they state that this is a presence of more than just a few individuals.
I’ll repeat the quote from page 17 “The Lobby also has significant leverage over the executive branch. That power derives from the influence Jewish voters have on presidential elections.” And here is where you mis-read my argument. My argument is not the mere presence of American Jews threaten the United States, but their participation in the political process that creates this jeopardy.
.
So, if the relationship with Israel threatens the security of the United States, and the reason the Us has its current relationship with Israel is due to the activity of “the Lobby”, made up of American Jews, and their actions, through the use of political arm-twisting, money, and manipulating the media, bring about this relationship, then yes Neo, Walt and Mearsheimer are making just that case, that American Jews are a direct threat to the United States of America and all American citizens.
.
You’re crying ‘liar liar’ doesn’t change their thesis no matter how many times you stamp your feet.
.
Beyond that your individual claims fall flat.
.
Indeed, your own statement below reinforces my original arguments about the threat.
“They then add that the actions of ‘the Lobby’ threaten not only the physical well-being of the US, but its moral stance as well.”
Walt and Mearsheimer are correct.
.
.
“To that end, its primary two arguments were that the Sauds rejected al-Queda’s support in fighting Saddam Hussein, and then defiling holy Saudi soil with the presence of Americans”
.
False. It has 5 primary arguments, which Bin Laden laid out in his 1996 fatwa against the US
1.Presence of US bases in Saudi Arabia
2.Unconditional support the US gives to Israel.
3.The support of dictators and tyrants in the Arab world
4.The brutal sanctions against Iraq
.
.
OK, so three out of the four arguments that you list (don’t know what you did with the fifth argument), show complaints of either direct US actions or the actions it takes towards Arab states directly. But according to you, its item number 2, that makes Walt and Mearsheimer’s entire case. Shallow.
.
.
Here’s the other thing Walt, Mearsheimer, and you seem to miss if you’re going down the path of Israel as a catalyst for al-Queda to attack.
.
“During the years of 1994 through 2001, when al-Queda was growing in power, and attacking US targets in Africa and Yemen, Israel and the Palestinians were at the peak of the Oslo process.”
.
A pathetic argument. The US was still in Saudi Arabia, still supporting dictators, still killing Iraqi children through sanctions. Your argument is that Al Qaeda should have forgotten all that just because of a half hearted peace effort?
.
.
Thank you for making my above argument Neo. And really, in the mid 1990’s, the Oslo period was at the height of its power and popularity.
.
.
You're lying either way. Mind control and quashing and legitimate debate and not even related. Your simply using hysteria to make a baseless argument and for the record, Walt and Mearsheimer never claimed that “Jews are manipulating the media”.
.
.
No Neo, I’m not lying. Page 19 of Walt and Mearsheimer’s working paper is titled “Manipulating the Media”. That’s their title in black and white. I’ll repeat my quote taken from the opening paragraph in that section: “ It (the Lobby) does not want an open debate on issues involving Israel, because an open debate might cause Americans to question the level of support that they currently provide.”
.
As for your piece from Time magazine, I would like to see some sourcing on that. I don’t discount that its real, but would like to read the work for myself in full.
.
Stephen M. Walt is the Robert and Renée Belfer professor of international relations at Harvard University.
Read More
(205)
HIDE COMMENTS LOGIN OR REGISTER REPORT ABUSE