Friday, January 20, 2012 - 4:31 PM

While I was away, a friend sent me a link to an article from the online magazine Tablet, and asked me what I thought about it. The piece is by Adam Kirsch, and it's basically a critical summary of the impact of my book (with John Mearsheimer) on the Israel lobby. Kirsch was clearly moved to write the piece by Robert Kaplan's laudatory profile of John in the Atlantic Monthly, which undoubtedly drove Kirsch and a number of our other critics crazy.
So what do I think? On the one hand, I could be somewhat gratified by the piece, insofar as he describes the book as an "intellectual landmark, one of those rare books that succeed in altering the intellectual climate." But on the other hand, Kirsch clearly thinks we've altered that climate for the worse, and his discussion of our work is filled with falsehoods. Like most of our other critics, Kirsch seems unable to address what we actually wrote. So he invents a straw man version of our argument -- in some cases accusing us of believing the exact opposite of what we actually said -- and proceeds to lambaste it instead.
Consider his very first paragraph, which purports to offer a summary of our argument (my emphasis):
"What [The Israel Lobby] did not do, to judge by the reviews, was convince anyone of its central argument, that an all-powerful "Israel lobby" had hijacked American foreign policy using illegitimate means…"
There are two problems here. First, "to judge by the reviews" doesn't tell you much about the book's merits (or its flaws), insofar as almost all of the mainstream reviewers in the United States were acknowledged Zionists who were bound to be hostile to our point of view. Not surprisingly, most reviews outside the U.S. -- including several in Israel itself -- were favorable.
Second, and more importantly, Kirsch's summary of our argument bears little or no resemblance to what we actually wrote. Indeed, he managed to pack three separate falsehoods into a single sentence, which is no small achievement. To wit:
1. He claims we said the lobby was "all-powerful." In fact, we wrote "we do not believe the lobby is all-powerful, or that it controls important institutions in the United States. As we will discuss in several subsequent chapters, there are a number of cases where the lobby did not get its way." (TIL, p. 14). We repeated this statement elsewhere in the book, in public presentations, and in several subsequent articles. So how did Kirsch manage to miss this?
2. He claims we argued that the lobby had "hijacked" U.S. foreign policy "using illegitimate means." In fact, we wrote "The Israel lobby is not a cabal or conspiracy or anything of the sort. It is engaged in good old-fashioned interest group politics, which is as American as apple pie." We also emphasized that "it is perfectly legitimate for any American to have a significant attachment to a foreign country" (TIL, p. 13). And we repeated similar statements throughout the book. Either Kirsch didn't bother to read it, or he is just inventing arguments that we did not make so that he has something to criticize.
3. Kirsch alleges that "in our insinuations about secret Jewish power, Mearsheimer and Walt…had given a respectable imprimatur to old and sinister anti-Semitic tropes. " Wrong again. We have a lengthy section denouncing traditional anti-Semitism, and we never--repeat never--said one word or offered "insinuations" about "secret" Jewish power. On the contrary, we repeatedly emphasized that the lobby's activities were above-board and out in the open, like those of other prominent interest groups. We are both familiar with the long and sordid history of anti-Semitism, and we devoted a lengthy section of our introduction to a discussion of these various "anti-Semitic tropes" and our explicit rejection of them, emphasizing that they help explain why it is hard to even talk about this issue. Moreover, when discussing the neoconservative movement, we wrote "what may seem to some like a shadowy conspiracy (or even a "right wing cabal") is anything but. On the contrary.Tthe various think tanks, committees, foundations, and publications that have nurtured the neoconservative movement operate much as other policy networks do. Far from shunning publicity or engaging in hidden plots, these groups actively court publicity for the explicit purpose of shaping public and elite opinion and moving U.S. foreign policy in the directions they favor." (TIL, p. 131).
For that matter, we repeatedly emphasized that the term "Jewish lobby" was an inappropriate label, because many Jews do not support the lobby's agenda and because some key members of the lobby were not Jewish (most notably the so-called Christian Zionists). For this reason, we wrote "it is the specific political agenda that defines the lobby, not the religious or ethnic identity of those pushing it" (TIL, p. 115).
4. Lastly, Kirsch suggests that our book advocated "cutting Israel adrift," and implies that we believe "America's interests and problems in the Islamic world will be resolved…if and when a Palestinian state is created." This isn't even close to what we wrote. We repeatedly said that we supported Israel's existence, and that we believed the United States should come to its aid if its survival were in jeopardy." We repeatedly say the U.S. should have a "normal" relationship with Israel, akin to our relations with other democracies. How is this "cutting Israel adrift?" And we made it clear that our recommended policy approach "will not eliminate all the problems currently facing the United States in the Middle East…Israeli-Palestinian peace is not a wonder drug that will solve all the region's problems: it will by itself neither eliminate anti-Semitism in the region nor lead Arab elites to tackle the other problems that afflict their societies with new energy and commitment" (TIL, p. 348). Once again, Kirsch is either writing about a book he hasn't read, or engaging in willful distortion.
In short, Kirsch's supposed summary of our core argument, as well as his tortured effort to interpret the book's cover as anti-Semitic, is demonstrably false. It is not even a caricature of what we actually wrote; it is a wholly fictitious construction of his own. And the same could be said for virtually all of the reviews that he cites as "evidence" of our supposed errors and alleged bigotry. As I've noted before, our critics are forced to misrepresent our book because they cannot deal with the arguments that we actually made. The only way for them to challenge us is to distort or misrepresent what we said, or to pretend we said the exact opposite. And it is surely no accident that these distortions are always slanted to portray us falsely as anti-Semites, which has become the all-purpose way for hardline defenders of Israel to respond to those with different views.
Fortunately, there is a more parsimonious explanation for why our book may have helped open up public discourse on these issues. Not by legitimizing anti-Semitism, of course, which would be a deplorable development that both Mearsheimer and I would condemn in the strongest terms. Rather, our book may have helped open up a more fruitful debate on U.S. Middle East policy, and especially on the U.S.-Israel "special relationship," for the simple reason that we were pointing out obvious truths that many knowledgeable people already recognized. We may have succeeded because there was overwhelming evidence of the lobby's impact -- including testimony from a wide range of politicians -- evidence that no amount of distortion or slander could conceal. Eyes have also been opened by unfortunate events like the Lebanon War of 2006, the Gaza War of 2008-2009, and the Obama administration's failed attempts to advance a two-state solution, all of which cast a bright light on the lobby's clout in Washington. And it surely didn't hurt that our critics reacted in precisely the way we described in our book, resorting to misrepresentation and smear tactics instead of dealing with our arguments and evidence in a rational and fair-minded fashion.
If Kirsch is correct that we are "winning," in short, maybe it's because we paid close attention to facts and logic and did not attack our opponents with inaccurate smears or attempts at character assassination. Maybe we're "winning" because our core argument was correct: the various groups that make up the "Israel lobby" have been mistakenly advocating policies that were in fact harmful to the United States and to Israel itself, and more and more people have begun to figure this out.
Uriel Sinai/Getty Images
Stephen Walt parses words--who he is, however, is clear
Stephen Walt is simply a bat-crazy Israel-hater who uses the veneer of language of academia in an effort to cloak his hatred.
Israel is considered a friend and ally by the majority of Americans. This is not because of the "Israel Lobby". This is because Israel's value and America's are aligned, Israel's interests and America's are aligned, and most Americans have a little something called common sense.
Were it not for Israel, Iraq and Syria would today have nuclear weapons. Iraq's would have been used to take over Kuwait without American intervention and to spike oil prices still further, hurting our economy and our working class, especially hard. Syria's nukes would currently be getting sold to terrorists by those now revolting against the Assad dictatorship (as occured in Libya, with anti-aircraft missiles, during the revolt there).
Were it not for Israel, another two terrorist states would exist, one run by Hamas and one by the PLO. And Hizbollah would be free to focus their own jihad on the U.S., rather than on Israel.
Were it not for Israel, our soldiers would not be protected by reactive armor, by the world's best bullet proof vests, and by the world's only effective missile defense technology. We would not have had drones to do targeted work at a distance for our soldiers. We would not have the effective urban warfare doctrines that have prevented a repeat of Somalia.
Stephen Walt knows nothing of American national interest.
Stephen Walt knows only of his hatred for Israel...and we all know what usually causes that.
Were it not for Israel we wouldn't have ethnic transfer and modern day apartheid against an indigenous population. Something else to be proud of.
"Stephen Walt is simply a bat-crazy Israel-hater"....
...oh, I see, you are talking about ANOTHER Stephen Walt.
Sorry, but this is Stephen Walt, the Robert and Renée Belfer professor of international relations at Harvard University.
He is neither crazy, nor does he hate Israel. He is a realist, and he doesn't think that the current Israel/USA relationship is realistic. So he calls for the USA to have a normal relationship with Israel, as opposed to an abnormal one.
He is hardly alone in that: many people both in the USA and in Israel thinks this current Israel/USA relationship is abnormal and, therefore, harmful to both countries.
Are they *all* bat-crazy?
that iraq and syria would have nuclear weapons questionable but conceiveable. the kuwait thing was a america/nato operation so thats a blatant lie. the plo/hizzbulla argument could also swing( without isreal there would be disenfranchised populace that would seek out terrorism). the reactive bricks are cool but not really incorporated into the american fleet, seen them on bradleys and some strykers, what has really been a game changer is the chobam armor developed and given to us by the british. the vests... well also an american development, also we developed the patriot missile batteries that,get this.... defend isreal. the drones were actually a isreali developed technology that was shared with the u.s.a so you were right on that.and last time a checked according to what assets they had in mogadishu the rangers and CAG guys kicked ass, not so much for isreal and there little expedition into lebonan recently. not to knock isreali military prowess but urban warfare is much easier when civilian casualties dont factor into your roe. so as it stands.......... isreal gave us drone technology that we matured into impressive isr and killing platforms.
And we rest our case with frankic
The reflexive tendency to smear and marginalize critics of the “special relationship” by accusations of being either anti-semites or “self-hating” Jews has become a self-discrediting enterprise, because the charge keeps getting directed at people for whom it is so obviously false.
Smearing respected individuals such as Carter, Desmond Tutu, Tony Kushner, Tony Judt, Walt or others who disagree with Israels failed policies is transparently bogus and intended solely to stifle intelligent discourse on a vital subject.
And when defenders of any cause have to stoop to such tactics, it reveals that they are defending an increasingly weak case.
An even playing field is something that the Israelis and frankic abhor.
Israel and frankiec believes they are beyond criticism. When Israel is criticized it responds with bullying and name calling. The world knows this is what you do and the bullying and name calling becomes meaningless. When you can’t attack the facts you resort to name calling.
Anything short of effusive praise and deaf, dumb, and blind support for Israel is seen as evidence of bias.
“When you cannot attack someone’s facts or evidence, you call them names,” Walt said.
Perfect example is frankiec. Go back to your cubicle at the hasbara institute in your capitol Tel Aviv and stay there, your ilk are not welcome here anymore.
I read so many critiques of Walt and Mearsheimer but Walt can destroy them all, because he is right and the facts support him. All the critiques are emotional and not based in logic. The sad facts are that Israel is trying to steal the Palestinian land and kick them out. All the words are meant to distract you from noticing this outrage. Something amazing happened this week which was ignored by many of the US news outlets, although the Washington Post covered it. Nick Clegg, the deputy PM of the UK, speaking for his government at a press conference in London on Jan 16th, said that the Israeli settlements were "deliberate vandalism". That sums it all up brilliantly. My t-shirt is already printed. The world was listening and the truth can no longer be suppressed. The rules are changing and Walt and Mearsheimer should be congratulated for their courage in speaking out. The article by Kaplan is very patronizing and he in fact damns Mearsheimer with faint praise, I thought. He uses the same implied anti-semitic nonsense to try to undermine Mearsheimer's critique of Israel and indirectly accuses him of supporting antisemites. That is to say, if David Duke uses a public toilet that you have used, you are a suspected antisemite. The trick is not working any more I am pleased to say, in no small part thanks to Walt and Mearsheimer.
Oh, and one more thing frankiec
Hamas and Hezbollah each can credit its origin to Israeli occupation. Hamas was born on the eve of the first Palestinian Intifada, from a single incident when an Israeli truck mowed deliberately into a carload of Palestinian workers in the Gaza strip.
Officially formed in 1985, Hezbollah, in turn, was jumpstarted by Israel’s 1982 invasion and occupation of Southern Lebanon.
You are also ignoring the fact that Israel helped Hamas rise in the 1980s to defeat the PLO and then when the PLO ceased being effective advocates for its people, it embraced it and sidelined Hamas.
The armed insurgent is always a “terrorist” and a “fanatic” according to the occupier, but is seen as a hero and a liberator by the oppressed. Hamas is not going to go away. Hamas was democratically elected by the Palestinian people.
Zionism is the ethnic cleansing of all Palestinians from ‘Jewish’ land. You can’t accuse Hamas while ignoring all the right wingers in Israel who call for the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and the daily terrorism by the illegal settler terrorist squatters. You’re a hypocrite and not very good one at that.
I and the most of the world do not deny the right of the Palestinian freedom fighters to resist the land expropriations and ethnic cleansing of the lands in their occupied territories. Nor do I deny them the right to resist Israeli oppression. They are as entitled as were the Jewish Freedom fighters of the Stern Gang, Irgun and Haganah.
You can not stop an idea with bombs. The Iranians can and will build a bomb just like Israel did, in secret.
Thanks to Professors Walt and Mearsheimer for their ground breaking truth telling. In fact, they are better friends of Israel in terms of reality than all the emotionally ill hard core Zionists. I wonder when COMETLINEAR and the so called Marine Diaper will bounce in today.
Here is reality. It is a certain truth that the Zionist lobbies currently control American foreign policy. To publicly disagree with them will continue to draw the false flag attack of antisemitism. This will not change anytime soon but it is a big problem not only for America but also for Israel. Why?
Because as long as they control American foreign policy, they are exempt from reality. Which is that the periodic devastation, death by state assassination, the imprisonment of tens of thousands of Palestinians and dispossession of millions more from their homes and homeland, penning the remainder within huge concrete walls, and the Apartheid policies of Israeli state are TEMPORARILY shielded from their ultimate and certain consequences. History marches on, as it always does.
This cannot last. Everyone knows this. In reality, Israel has no better friend than those who maintain (such as the J Street Lobby) that it must be a just and mutually agreed two state solution, a one state solution (unitary, democratic and non-sectarian with one person, one vote) or unending war. An Apartheid Israel is morally abhorrent and politically unsustainable.
A third war against Iran that is in reality no offensive military threat against superpower Israel, for reasons of nuclear WMD which they do not have, and because of Iran's political opposition to Zionism, will bring us all to the clear tipping point. The consequences of such a war would be mass chaos from Lebanon to Pakistan. The Straights of Hormuz being largely shut. Figure out for yourself what that would mean. How does the thought of oil at say $300 per barrel strike you?
Very suddenly, all the usual ignorant Americans who see Israel as a metaphor, or a biblical prophesy, or as an ally (against whom or for what?) would in a single instant wake up and say, who brought this doom upon us? Who brought us total economic collapse? Then you would get a repeat of humanity's predilection for scapegoating and vengeance. The Jews again held responsible as a total people for wrongs done by the few but the powerful. In so many ways, this is not a good thing.
Have courage Professors Walt and Mearsheimer. You are working for the good. Very best of luck to you both.
This is all-too-familiar. Like folks like Marty Peretz and Alan Dershowitz, this gentleman resorts to name calling and dishonesty to attack something which threatens his narrow view of realpolitik. The fact remains that Israel's defenders often check their brains at the door when engaging in debate...
If walt is so "wrong " then why are his critics still
trying to bring him down 6 yeras after his paper was publiched?
>> Me thinks he doth protest too much.
Umm, you and your fellow Hasbrats are here doing all the protesting.
What Frankie means is the Walt drives Hasbrats batshit crazy
>> Israel is considered a friend and ally by the majority of Americans.
The majority of Americans can't find Israel on the map. They believe what they are told.
Israel's valusand America's are not aligned. Apartheid and ethnic cleansing are not an American value.
>> Were it not for Israel, Iraq and Syria would today have nuclear weapons.
False. Israel's bombing of Iraq's reactor actually convinced Saddam to pursue nuclear weapons to prevent it happening again.
There was no reactor bombed in Syria. Syria had no nuclear weapons program.
>> Iraq's would have been used to take over Kuwait without American intervention and to spike oil prices still further, hurting our economy and our working class, especially hard.
Israel's desire to bomb Iran will also spike oil prices.
>>Were it not for Israel, another two terrorist states would exist, one run by Hamas and one by the PLO.
Thanks to Israel illegally and militarily occupying Palestinian land.
>> And Hizbollah would be free to focus their own jihad on the U.S., rather than on Israel.
Rubbish. Hezbollah would not exist we're it not for Israel's invasion and 18 year occupation of Lebanin.
>> Were it not for Israel, our soldiers would not be protected by reactive armor, by the world's best bullet proof vests, and by the world's only effective missile defense technology.
Rubbish. The US troops are forced to wear government issued American made body armor. The Israeli defense missile technology has been exposed as a failure.
>> Stephen Walt knows nothing of American national interest.
Stop projecting.
>> Stephen Walt knows only of his hatred for Israel...and we all know what usually causes that
Israel's policies and behavior breeds hatred.
Come out of the closet USMarine
These repeated references to your homo eroic fantasies are gettign kinda creepy.
Fake Marine stil comparing Israel to 19th century
America.
>> You must be talking about your treatment and actions towards Native Americans. I didn't realize Israel made you do that.
I didn't realize that Israel was so desperate to relieve the 19th century just because it missed out.
BTW. The treatment and actions towards Native Americans is accepted as a crime against humanity and a shameful capter of Amrican history. Do you think we'll nned to wait 200 years for Israel to reach that level of maturity?
Leader of Hezbollah in Lebanon has described Israeli lobby’s global influence and reach to a spider’s web.
One cannot take Stephen Walt seriously when he says that all is transparent and above the board about the Israeli lobby’s activities in the US and worldwide.
How can one explain the obvious pro-Israeli tilt of the most respectable Western media otherwise?
How can one sit through the packed Joint Session of Congress and watch the over 20 standing ovations the Israeli PM Netanyahu received thanks to the overwhelming influence of the Israeli lobby from the delegates for his highly charged political speech and not wonder that something must be very wrong and corrupt on the American political scene?
The “spider’s web” of Israeli lobby is well-established. All we have to do is to look for the spider at its center.
Proves our point to a T. marinediaper - every hasbaric post of yours turn another 3 or 4 people to the pro-Palestinian side. Keep it up, your doing our work for us! Just a suggestion for you - I have the solution for your problems! To open your medication bottle, you need to push the top DOWN, then twist! There, that should do it.
Abbas’s Mufti Preaches Jewish Slaughter (Contentions)
From Commentary Magazine's "Contentions" Weblog
January 23, 2012
Abbas’s Mufti Preaches Jewish Slaughter
By Jonathan S. Tobin
For some in the West, including many left-wing Jews, the prime obstacle to peace remains an obdurate Israeli government whose hard-line policies need to change. This is the conceit behind groups like J Street; the left-wing lobby that claims its services are needed to save Israel from itself. Unfortunately for the group and its cheering section in the press, all that is needed to debunk their argument is to pay even the slightest attention to what the Palestinians–the intended object of the left-wingers’ solicitude–are doing and saying.
Their principal religious leader, Mufti Muhammad Hussein, provided the latest example of mainstream Palestinian opinion. Earlier this month, Hussein told a gathering commemorating the founding of the “moderate” Fatah Party the slaughter of the Jews remains their religious duty. The speech, broadcast on official Palestinian television on Jan. 9, is a classic anti-Semitic incitement to hatred and a violation of the peace accords the Palestinian Authority has signed. The fact that it is has largely gone unreported tells you all you need to know about the distorted vision of the Middle East by the mainstream media.
The program was, as Palestine Media Watch reports, introduced by a moderator who repeated a familiar theme in Muslim hate speech:
Our war with the descendants of the apes and pigs is a war of religion and faith. Long Live Fatah!
The mufti’s reminder followed that to the faithful saying Islam’s goal is to kill Jews:
47 years ago the [Fatah] revolution started. Which revolution? The modern revolution of the Palestinian people’s history. In fact, Palestine in its entirety is a revolution, since [Caliph] Umar came [to conquer Jerusalem], and continuing today, and until the End of Days. The reliable Hadith (tradition attributed to Muhammad), in the two reliable collections, Bukhari and Muslim, says:
“The Hour [of Resurrection] will not come until you fight the Jews.
The Jew will hide behind stones or trees.
Then the stones or trees will call:
‘Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.’
Except the Gharqad tree [which will keep silent].”
Therefore it is no wonder that you see Gharqad [trees]
surrounding the [Israeli] settlements and colonies.”
This is not the first time Mufti Hussein, who was appointed by PA President Mahmoud Abbas, has spoken in this manner. He gave a similar sermon in Jerusalem in 2010 in which he preached that the Jews are “the enemies of Allah.” Israel has condemned this hate speech but there has been no disavowal by the Jewish state’s peace partners. Nor has the United Nations or the European Union, both of which have spoken of Jewish home building in Jerusalem as crimes, spoken out against it.
The point about this incident is how unremarkable it is for Palestinians to speak of killing Jews as a religious obligation. Anyone wondering how or why the PA could have rejected Israel’s offer of a Palestinian state in the West Bank, Gaza and a share of Jerusalem three times between 2000 and 2008 need only read these words to know it is unthinkable for any Palestinian leader to sign an agreement that signifies their acceptance of the legitimacy of a Jewish state no matter where its borders are drawn. It is this sort of hate speech, and not Israeli settlements or insistence on security, that is holding up the peace process. Until statements such as those of Abbas’s mufti are regarded as outliers rather than mainstream opinion, the religious and political culture of Palestinian society will continue to make peace impossible.
--Posted By Jonathan S. Tobin, 1-23-2012, 10:15 AM
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2012/01/23/palestinian-mufti-abbas-kill-jews-islam/#more-781581
BEN10 writes:
"....indigenous population. Something else to be proud of."
Yeah "indigenous people like Yasser Arafat, the very symbol and embodiment Palestinians
He was born in Egypt.
He grew up in Egypt
He got his Engineering degree from University in Cairo.
He carried an Egyptian Passport.
The the rest of the so called "Palestinians" are as "indigenous" as Arafat - As Newt Gingrich said it well - "an invented people".
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH...
Debunking the Palestine Lie (Encounter Books YouTube Channel)
Debunking the Palestine Lie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ByJb7QQ9U
I would not need to be humiliated at the airport.
How is Israel's value in common to ours? I think ours is about assimilation of ethnicity and individualism. The very motivation of the Jews for the existence of Israel is an anti-American ideal.
In Israel, I see a militarily defected people refusing to assimilate for over a thousand years and now reclaiming a homeland.
If Israel is American value, then may be the Indian Nations should all have seats at the UN and armed forces of their own.
I can see this coming, in the middle of Kansas, an "Indian Nation" becomes a state recognized at the UN, where all the "Native Americans" from North and South America can claim lineage to and the right of abode. Would we not be irate? Pretty just I think, but irate nonetheless.
The USA is in decline because of our support for Israel. This is not obvious only to the devoutly religious.
The Israel Lobby was a seminal piece of work and foreign policy scholarship. It's unsuprising that the Israel lobby nexus has reacted with such hostility to it's central thesis, going so far as to misrepresent the book, it's content and libel it's authors. After all, the book can and has caused a shift in public opinion (both on the political right and left) which may in future provoke a change in policy in the middle east that could result in pressure on Israel to modulate it's behaviour.
To the lobby, committed as it is to Israeli security and strategic dominance above all else (in some cases to the detriment of the US), the premise that ideas that then lead to changes in public opinion, whichin turn lead to facts on the ground, isn't lost on them: it's an unbearable threat to it's power. But I don't believe this itself is lost on the wider readership, in more prosaic terms, when you have you finger in the electrical socket and everyone is getting very upset, you can be sure something important is at stake.
It's also worth nothing that I don't think The Israel Lobby itself has ever been reviewed in The New York Review of books, probably because it's content is too uncomfortable or unpalatable to it's readership. It was first published by the London Review Of Books. But looking in the NYRB today, especially David Bromich's piece on the 'Republican Nightmare' The book's influence is everywhere and inescapable, and it stands the test of time, which must be annoying to it's detractors.
Professor Walt,
While I understand you wanting to defend your and Mearsheimer's book, the critics just keep levying the same flawed arguments and you keep refuting them in the same manner (sort of like modern IR critics of Waltz's Theory where critics "disprove" it by noting it can't explain certain aspects of non-great powers foreign policy). There's been an interesting discussion as of late of the alleged anti-Israeli strain within the Democratic Party (CAP and Media Matters) which I don't believe you've touched on here. In any case, one of the more controversial aspects of it is demonizing pro-Likud Americans as Israeli-firsters instead of addressing their arguments. Said pro-Likud Americans have objected to this despicable phrase noting the history behind it. In any case, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the matter given how much you've been demonized so much by the Pro-Likud Americans.
The Rock Man from the Pointless Forest
Harry Nilsson, in his album, The Point has a character. The Rock Man. "The Rock Man said "Say babe, there ain't nothing pointless about this gig. The thing is you see what you want to see, and you hear what you want to hear. You dig? You ever see Paris?" "No." "You ever see New Dehli?" "No." "Well that's it. You see what you want to see, and you hear what you want to hear." And with that the Rockman fell soundly asleep, leaving Oblio and Arrow once again all alone."
Kirsch could be 1] incurably stupid; 2] could be curably ignorant; 3] could be blind [possibly curable depends upon type of blindness]; or, 4] could be lying.
I'm betting on 1, 3 and 4.
How about the Saudi Lobby? How about the Saudi investments in USA? American government would not give the details of Saudi investments in USA.
The Zionists decide American foreign policy. The Zionists wanted US to bomb the Serbs twice to save the Bosnian Muslims.
The problem is not that the Israel lobby is the strongest. The real problem is that there is a weak Palestine lobby. The events of 911 were celebrated only in two places around the world with zeal. No it wasn't Israel. One was Saddam Hussein's Iraq and the other was West bank.
Why doesn't the Saudi lobby work for Palestinians. Not that it is a Saudi lobby, the Americans are not yet ready to call the Zionist state illegal. The great dream of Muslim warriors right from the year 1948 is destruction of Israel.
"The problem is not that the Israel lobby is the strongest. The real problem is that there is a weak Palestine lobby." The problem is that the Israel Lobby stifles other lobbies and the MSM.
"The problem is not that the Israel lobby is the strongest. The real problem is that there is a weak Palestine lobby." The problem is that the Israel Lobby stifles other lobbies and the MSM.
I don't know how much Walt believes in conspiracy theories though I am pretty sure he has lesser belief than me.
Don't know why I am getting in this with you but your conspiracy theories give more credence to Walt's intellectual bankruptcy.
If you lobby on behalf of Saudi Arabia then you have to register as "an agent of a foreign government".
But if your organization exists to lobby on behalf of Israel then you don't have to register as "an agent of a foreign government".
Go figure, heh? Somehow - and I'm not certain how - Israel ceased to be "a foreign country".
Apparently at some stage in the recent past Israel become the 51st State of the Union, and nobody told the American public......
Facts and history place Muslims and Arabs on the defense ..
And so they should.
>> How about the Saudi Lobby?
Sorry, did I miss the Saudi Lobby annual conference, where US lawmakers line up to give speeches and declare the unbreakable bobe between ISrael and Saudi Arabia?
>> How about the Saudi investments in USA? American government would not give the details of Saudi investments in USA.
The Saudi investments in USA is public information.
>> The problem is not that the Israel lobby is the strongest. The real problem is that there is a weak Palestine lobby.
So weak that it doesn't exist. In fact, raising money in the US for Paletinian causes can land you in prison.
>> The events of 911 were celebrated only in two places around the world with zeal. No it wasn't Israel. One was Saddam Hussein's Iraq and the other was West bank.
Make that 3 places. The third was in Brooklyn, where 5 Israelis were caught dancing in celebration.
>> Why doesn't the Saudi lobby work for Palestinians.
a. because there isn't one and
b. The Saudi leadership are tyrants
>> Not that it is a Saudi lobby, the Americans are not yet ready to call the Zionist state illegal.
Thanks to the lobby.
>> Facts and history place Muslims and Arabs on the defense ..
Yeah sure, that's why Netenyahu has declared world opinion,l Haaretz and the NYT to be the greatest threats to Israel.
Go figure.
Fake Sniper has nothign better to do than talk trash
>> AIPAC, the Oil Lobby, the Saudi (Arab) lobby are NOT under foreign control.
Of course they are. AIPAC is little more than an arm of the Likud party. Before they called themselves AIAPC, the lobby was known as the American Zionist Council.
In the early 1960's Israel funneled $5 million (more than $35 million in today's dollars) into US propaganda and lobbying operations. The funds were channeled via the quasi governmental Jewish Agency's New York office into an Israel lobby umbrella group, the American Zionist Council. Senate Foreign Relations Committee investigations and hearings documented funding flows, propaganda, and public relations efforts and put them into the record. But the true fate of the American Zionist Council was never known, except that its major functions were visibly shut down and shifted over to a former AZC unit known as the "Kenen Committee," called the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (or AIPAC) in the late 1960's.
John F Kennedy tried repeatedly to force the AZC to registers as a foreign lobby, and never did the lobby argue that it was a domestic organization.
The Saudi investments in USA is public information.
Yet, information regarding the magnitude of the Saudi economic infiltration into the United States is secret. The U.S. Treasury’s interpretation of the census law, supported by a 1982 court decision, shields this data from the public. On Oct. 27, 1982, the American Jewish Congress (AJC) was denied information requested under its own FOIA inquiry, by the U.S. District Court in Washington D.C. (Civ. A. No. 81-1745). The AJC litigated its FOIA case up to the Supreme Court, but the government won.
Indeed, filing a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to the Department of Commerce is useless. FOIA Director Burton H. Reist stated in December that this data “is protected by Title 13, United States Code, Section 9, which requires that census records be used solely for statistical purposes and also makes these records confidential.” Furthermore, FOIA “exempts from disclosure records that are made confidential by statute.” In other words, the government wants this information kept secret.
For better information :
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2006/jan/15/20060115-103622-3038r/?page=all
The third was in Brooklyn, where 5 Israelis were caught dancing in celebration.
Again a conspiracy theory that your cousins in press tv are gleefully propagating. It was based on a testimony of a single woman.
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=123885&page=1#.Tx4ebKWonAF
What your terrorist friend Osama Bin Laden said on his infamous tapes might convince you. So stop these conspiracy theories for they make someone like Walt even less convincing.
Whatever is happening in Palestine is not caused by Israelis. In fact Israel provides more rights to Arabs than any other Arabian country. The problem for so called Palestinians is self created where they would not take anything less than the whole Israel. This is what they tried in 1948 and lost. Don't be sour losers and leave your arms and sit down for talks.
But we all know it is impossible to expect a hate filled Arab terrorist to talk about peace.
you must be talking about the ethnic genocide by the european and american colonists against the native indigenous indians, right? :-)
No I wasn't, hence the term 'modern day apartheid' and 'ethnic transfer', both of which are quite distinct from genocide or indeed industrial scale genocide. Both are abhorent, we can all agree on that.
It's curious though, you say it as if European ethno-genocide, in the Americas, and in Australasia for example, is something to be justified. As a way for Israel's behaviour to be excused in historical terms. As a Jew, I find that quite disturbing, living as I do, less then seventy years after the Holocaust - a horrible act of European genocide. That Israel has basically created the word's biggest prison camp, packed with women and children in Gaza (nearly all of them refugees or the children of refugees) who are imprisoned by a walls, watched over by IDF soldiers and drones - is something we should all be ashamed of.
The US "reservations" of native americans are a Club Med compared to the open air prison camp known as Gaza.
For one thing, tje US "reservations" are not bombed on a daily basis or under siege.
"Marine," you've evidently been to neither. Gaza is as dense a collection of humanity as there is on earth. The US "Indian Reservations" are open and relatively un-populated. To compare them shows a total lack of credibility or knowledge. Before you threaten anyone Marine, I'll put my ruggers against your small clique of fake Marines anyday. Come to Dallas big talker. I'll use your foot to dislocate your teeth. Then, your toothless mouth will be better for the cocksucking you so relish.
Neoleft,
You are a full of shit. if indeed you had been in Gaza, then I am sure you must have missed THE attraction in Gaza city. A brand news plush shopping center opend in gaza.
Here it it how it looks
http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&client=ubuntu&hs=JNl&sa=X&channel=fs&biw=1440&bih=657&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=72AUBXrV6CBokM:&imgrefurl=http://www.faithfreedom.org/features/news/starved-palestinians-in-gaza-city-open-new-shopping-mall/&docid=sdoKviK522VDuM&imgurl=http://www.faithfreedom.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/Gazas-Shopping-Mall.jpg&w=483&h=358&ei=AeweT468OvTUiAKL-6z4Cw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=975&vpy=103&dur=59&hovh=193&hovw=261&tx=105&ty=96&sig=100496201932659869028&page=1&tbnh=142&tbnw=182&start=0&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:4,s:0
oh please ..dont be so defensive..just go with it, be what u r
come on walty...just admit what you are...your whole being seems to be geared toward almost one singular direction of thought....bring down israel.
The truth is walty, in this life, you have real friends and then you have the posers...israel is a real friend to the US...it is anything but an apartheid state, it is hardly the side that has not wanted to make peace....the WHOLE discussion has NEVER been about settlments, its about the right of israel to exist at all, anywhere(see PLO established in 1964, PRE SETTLEMENT 1964).
Why is it we in the west seem to think that just because we think israel is legitimate to exist inside the green line(as stephen points out above) that the arabs also then see it the same way??? they dont....and yet we keep lying to ourselves about that? or are we just not really saying how we feel there steve.. its not really possible that you are unaware of this fact.
you yourself KNOW israel is not an apartheid state, you know israel has always wanted peace, and you know that the arabs reject israel inside ANY border....so yes, I say clearly, if you keep somehow dismissing this, then you are what "they" say you are. Just by your saying in the article above that all of your US crtitics are critics because they are all zionists in of itself tells me what you are...
The US is and has been supportive of israel, an ally, for MANY reasons...and OUGHT to be...just because you left wing academics have kowtowed to the arab extortion plan doesnt mean others ought to.
later stevie
>> come on walty...just admit what you are...your whole being seems to be geared toward almost one singular direction of thought....bring down israel.
Wow, who woudl have thougth that Israel was so fragile, brittle and unstable that it could be brought down with a few stroked of Professor Walt's keyboard?
>>...israel is a real friend to the US...
That would explain why Mossad are posing as CIA agents and endagering American lives.
There is no dispute anymore that Israel is an apartheid state.
>> the WHOLE discussion has NEVER been about settlments
False. The discussin about settlements began in 1967. 22 Arabs states have offered to recognize Israel and normalize relations with Israel so long as Israel returns to the 1967 borders. Israel has refused, so yes it is definitely about settlements.
>> its about the right of israel to exist at all, anywhere(see PLO established in 1964, PRE SETTLEMENT 1964).
See the 1948 ethnic cleansing of 800,000 Palestinians by Israel.
Why is it we in the west seem to think that just because we think israel is legitimate to exist inside the green line(as stephen points out above) that the arabs also then see it the same way?
Probably becasue 22 Arab States signed an agreement in 2002 with said exactly that.
>> you yourself KNOW israel is not an apartheid state
2 formes south african Prime Ministers, Nelspon Mandella and Desmod Tutu disagree
>> you know israel has always wanted peace
They've wanted territory more
>> The US is and has been supportive of israel, an ally, for MANY reasons.
Yes, lobby, lobby and lobby.
It's sad but also kinda cute in a puppyish way seeing Walt painstakingly going over his whole book again striving striving striving to show how careful he was, time and again, in this way and that, to not accuse anyone of any intentional nefariousness or maliciousness.
It's like seeing someone bring a squirt gun to a napalm fight.
It doesn't matter, Professor: No-one who has read your book truly believes you're anti-semitic in any way that makes any reasonable sense. And you aren't going to stop being called an anti-semite or stop being reviled if both Moses and King David themselves come down and bless your tuchus at high noon out on the Quad.
The people you have criticized don't play by your rules, and there is absolutely nothing you can do or say that is going to remove the target from your back. The entire meaning of your existence now for them is simply that of an enemy to work vengeance upon in every way possible, and someone to be made an example of, period.
They don't play by the rules, but in the process they have lost the respect of most thoughtful observers both here and abroad. The take-away point for me is how far the US discussion of The Lobby has progressed in a short 4+ years. If the NYT is now near the top of the Istraeli government's "enemies list," we are well on the way to social justice in Israel/Palestine. Note also Barak's clear back-away from talk about an Israeli attack upon Iran. Not playing by the rules (e.g., murder of Iranian scientists) is one thing, but completely dissociated from reality, the Israelis are not.
LOBEWIPER wrote:
"They don't play by the rules, but in the process they have lost the respect of most thoughtful observers both here and abroad. The take-away point for me is how far the US discussion of The Lobby has progressed...."
When that respect and discussion transmogrifies into results give me a call. I don't think I need to expect same anytime soon.
These are the intellectual children of Jabotinsky and the Irgun, and the Stern Gang and Shamir and Begin, and outside of their own they don't care for respectability and they don't care for discussion, except as they may be used to advance their interests. The instant they don't, they are mortal enemies of both.
They didn't care for the respectability of Lord Moyne nor did they care to chat things over with him, and the same with Count Bernadotte. And they didn't care about losing respect or conversation partners when they blew those two eminently good and decent men into hamburger, the same way they didn't worry about such things when carrying out Deir Yassin.
These in essence are the kind of "rules" they don't care about, except as they might be used against those who believe in them (such as Walt).
They care about results.
They care about immediate results, but they don't think long-term and they assume their opponents have no long-term memory. Their actions sow not respect in the eyes of others, but fear and mistrust. They are desperate people who are seriously harming their own cause.
For Timing, I attach a link to one of his most 'favorite" writers, Mr. Thomas Friedman. Read it, Timing, because Friedman used to be an unreasoned defender of Israel but is now beginning to see the light.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/14/opinion/friedman-newt-mitt-bibi-and-vladimir.html?_r=1
The Haganah were not a faction of a faction Fake Marine
It's you that's a joke.
The Haganah were the main Zionist militia and became the IDF.
Lobewiper, and Sin Nombre, THANK YOU
You are both right. The nasty, unjust smears against Stephen Walt won't stop.
But: Time is working for the truth. Tom Friedman in the NYT is one case in point. Hopefully, we will see more of this.
But the pace is very slow. And AIPAC still has too much money, and too many followers in Congress.
And I trust, Stephen Walt will not get tired.
Every morning I wake up and read FP. (Since Fall Semester...) This is the kind of stuff that I have to comment on. This piece is simply a refute of another clods attempt to get at Walt. Adam Kirsch is according to wiki an American poet that works for the SUN. What??? Stick to what you're good at bud. You did go to Harvard but Walt has a PHD and works at Harvard. Big education disparity. I am surprised Walt even responded.
Everyone lobbys. People form groups in the office to get things done, Unions are but big lobbyist organization. Groups of people tend to be more effective than smaller groups of people. If you are a foreign power and find yourself in a unipolar system what would you do? Well you lobby the superpower. Why should we be surprised they lobby?
I like Israel. They are kind of the BA's of the middle east. Their HRT is the best in the world. They have a swiss model for their military. We are allies but allies shouldn't be telling allies what to do all the time. The problem with the American Israel relationship is that we feel that we can tell them what to do. Visa versa. We are simply too attached. Israel isn't the 51st state. If I am an Israeli lobbyist I would want autonomy. That frees up my nation to attack the people constantly tossing mortars at us. I don't need the Americans to be upset that some "civilians" died in the Gaza. The Israelis have a loser ROE. Well so does the rest of the world. We as Americans live under an allusion that war is some how clean. If the Iraqis fought with any kind of intelligence, we would have been looking at 10-15% casualties in the cities, and a lot more civilian deaths.
Boy I tell ya, these Zionists really love to be hated, they revel in it. The term anti-Semite, a term they get a lot of mileage out of, has changed. Rather then meaning “a person who hates Jews,” in now is a term Zionists use when they hate you! Haa, how things change. Dear Steve, I know you’re not much of a praying man, but I think the power of the Lord is the only way to break the spell the Israel Lobby has over Americans. Think about it, how it is possible that rational, intelligent, compassionate (even God fearing Christians, who are called to be peace makers by Jesus Christ), put all their common sense and decency aside, and believe supporting Israel, as they do, is in the best interest of America? It just goes to prove that logic has nothing to do with it, and that deep down the natural desires of man is evil.
Stephen M. Walt is the Robert and Renée Belfer professor of international relations at Harvard University.
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