Posted By Stephen M. Walt Share

Having written a fair bit about the pros and cons (mostly the latter) of a war with Iran, I feel compelled to offer a brief comment on Ronan Bergman's alarmist article in yesterday's New York Times Magazine. I say this even though I think the article was essentially worthless. It's a vivid and readable piece of reportage, but it doesn't provide readers with new or interesting information and it tells you almost nothing about the likelihood of an Israeli strike on Iran.

First off, the article is essentially a reprise of Jeffrey Goldberg's September 2010 Atlantic Monthly article on the same subject. The research method is identical: a reporter interviews a lot of big-shots in the Israeli security establishment, writes down what they say, and concludes that that Israel is very likely to attack. Bergman doesn't present new evidence or arguments, pro or con; it's just an updated version of the same old story.

Second, the central flaw in this approach is that there is no way of knowing if the testimony of these various officials reflects their true beliefs or not. There are lots of obvious reasons why Israeli officials might want to exaggerate their willingness to use force against Iran, and this simple fact makes it unwise to take their testimony at face value. Maybe they really mean what they say. Or maybe they just want to keep Tehran off-balance Maybe they want to distract everyone from their continued expansion of West Bank settlements and other brutalities against Palestinians. Maybe they want to encourage Europe to support tougher economic sanctions against Iran, and they know that occasional saber-rattling helps makes sanctions look like an attractive alternative. Maybe it's several of these things at once, depending on who's talking. Who knows?

By the way, I'm not accusing the officials that Bergman interviewed of doing anything wrong. I don't expect top officials of any country to tell the truth all the time, and I'm neither surprised nor upset when foreign officials try to manipulate fears of war in order to advance what they see as their interests. My point is that it is impossible to tell if they mean what they are saying or not, which is why an article based on interviews of this kind just isn't very informative. They might be telling the truth, or they might be lying, and nobody knows for sure.

Lastly, as Gary Sick notes in an excellent post of his own, the Bergman piece ignores the considerable evidence suggesting that Iran is not in fact trying to build a nuclear weapon. Equally important are Sick's reminder that the IAEA still has lots of inspectors keeping a watchful eye on Iran's nuclear activities, and his observation that Israel cannot attack Iran without warning, because doing so would almost certainly kill a bunch of IAEA inspectors.

His conclusion (and mine): until Iran expels the inspectors or Israel warns them that it is time to leave, there isn't going to be a war. And if that is the case, then Bergman's scary essay is just another example of empty alarmism.

Uriel Sinai/Getty Images

 
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FRED SMITH

9:39 PM ET

January 30, 2012

Israet to attack Iran

The longer and louder one talks about getting in a fight, the longer one prepares for it, the longer one scares it's people, the likelier it is to occur. What concerned me in the NYTimes piece is how much the population is being prepared for this. Here is follow up: http://6thfloor.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/30/behind-the-cover-story-ronen-bergman-on-israeli-plans-to-strike-iran/

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DAVID IN DC

2:21 PM ET

January 31, 2012

Research

The research method is identical: a reporter interviews a lot of big-shots in the Israeli security establishment, writes down what they say, and concludes that that Israel is very likely to attack. Bergman doesn't present new evidence or arguments, pro or con; it's just an updated version of the same old story.

Barring the primary sources and lack of a predetermined conclusion, sounds just like "The Israel Lobby".

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NEOLEFT

11:20 AM ET

February 1, 2012

Build a Bridge David and get over it

"Barring the primary sources and lack of a predetermined conclusion, sounds just like "The Israel Lobby"."

You've been trying this stunt for how many years now? Walt's thesis isn't going away. Deal with it.

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SIN NOMBRE

10:44 PM ET

January 30, 2012

Time to belly up to the prediction bar?

Steve Walt wrote;

"Gary Sick's] conclusion (and mine): until Iran expels the inspectors or Israel warns them that it is time to leave, there isn't going to be a war."

Set yourself up for looking like you're dodging here, Professor: Do you think then that Iran will expel the inspectors or Israel warns the inspectors to leave and that there thus will be war, or not?

FWIW I'd put the odds of same before our November elections as greater than not. More likely by Israel alone, which however would have a high likelihood of dragging us into its aftermath up to our necks.

Unlike Goldberg's article Bergman's had the ring of being written by someone not doing so in the service of any cause. And while lots of the officials Bergman interviewed might well be dissembling, it's hard to see Netanyahu as being anything but a true believer on the righteousness of smiting Iran and the heroism of doing so.

Nor do I think you can whack Bergman for not talking about whether Iran is building a weapon or not. That clearly just wasn't the scope of his article, and again there's no sense that he excluded same because it would hurt any cause of his. His focus was just clearly on a narrower slice of this issue.

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FORTHESAKEOFSENSE

11:36 PM ET

January 30, 2012

Alarmist

I think that restating what has been stated on the same subject again and again is resounding the alarm again and again. Your points are good. The problem I have is the tendency for leaders to to use tactics to blind their own public....that is blatant disrespect for human beings. If one believes inherently an values human worth be truthful.

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DELTA22

12:27 AM ET

January 31, 2012

-

If the U.S. can't knock out Iran's nuclear program and can only delay it for a few years at best, what the hell does Israel expect to accomplish? They're just going to wind up pissing off all their neighbors and quite possibly losing a few very expensive warplanes or their pilots.

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TOIVOS

12:39 AM ET

January 31, 2012

Israe can't attac

One point that should be pointed out over and over again is that Israel lacks the ability to achieve any significant military blows against Iran. Iran is just too far away and is too big. In any military campaign there is this thing called logistics -- namely, does Israel have the ability to deliver significant military force against Iran. Basically no, unless they resort to nuclear weapons (I assume that is not being considered for the many obvious reasons).

Given that Israel is quite powerless to exert pressure we should assume that all of their threats are designed to encourage the US and NATO to carry out the attacks. Given that this is unlikely, then we can dismiss their bluster for being just that, bluster.

For those of us opposed to this insanity, the biggest danger is that Israeli antics will create a circumstance that results in the US or Nato blundering into a war. Maybe by means of provoking the Iranians to act too aggressively or perhaps some false flag operation that confuses American decision makers into acting aggressively. Israel is dangerous to be sure, but they are simply too weak to take their threats seriously.

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SABABA03

1:06 AM ET

January 31, 2012

Here we go again.

Few thing I find quite disturbing from Prof. Walt.

1. Much like his take on Camp David accord of 2000. Here also, he derives his conclusion based on second hand sources, to question the credibility of those with first source knowledge of events on the ground..

2. Notwithstanding the continued settlements in WB. If Pals are smart, they would insert a simple clause to the condition of getting back to the negotiations. "Land with all existing improvements thereon". Such that, we all understand that, when Pals gain control of an area it will include the existing settlements, which would be turned over to the Pals. Existing Israeli settlers will receive just and fair compensation for their homes, and move elsewhere.

3. Iran with or w/o Nuclear capabilities. Everyone by now is convinced (That is, except this prof.) that this regime is danger to the stability of the region, and possibly to the rest of the word. 80% of the brave Iranians young man & woman loath and disdains this regime. They want them out - replaced with secular and democratically government elected by them.

As soon as the Syrian project is completed with the ouster of Basher, there is no doubt, the Arab revolution's domino effect with continue on to Tehran,

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BASE

2:47 AM ET

January 31, 2012

@SABABA03 -- Huh?

I am assuming that you are just making this stuff up as you go along when you say:

"Everyone by now is convinced (That is, except this prof.) that this regime is danger to the stability of the region, and possibly to the rest of the word."

This "Everyone" you refer to doesn't include 'everyone' cuz the recent polls taken all show that overwhelmingly, in the middle east, the people there all see the US and Israel as the greatest threats to regional instability - not Iran or its nuclear program - military or otherwise.

http://mondoweiss.net/2011/07/arab-countries-see-israeli-occupation-and-us-interference-as-greatest-threats-to-peace-in-middle-east-not-iran.html

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?aid=22963&context=va

In fact, many people here in the US agree with the sentiment (I, for one, most certainly do) that Israel and its continued settlement activity and continuous wars are more of a regional destabilizer than Iran. Iran is getting squeezed from all directions by the US - literally.

http://lfort.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/iran-surrounded-map.jpg

And are being attacked all the time by foreign powers - either the US or Israel or both...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93U.S._RQ-170_incident
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/01/13/has-israel-been-killing-iran-s-nuclear-scientists.html

and yet Iran continues to behave very rationally. They are trying to build a deterrent to regime change - exactly what anyone would do if they were getting squeezed. In fact, exactly what Israel did as well.

So perhaps in the future you should temper your proclamations of what 'everybody' believes.

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JOHNBOY4546

5:48 AM ET

January 31, 2012

"they would insert a simple clause"

SABABA03: "they would insert a simple clause to the condition of getting back to the negotiations."

Any such clause would be angrily torn up by Netanyahu.

Not only that, but after he had torn it up he would loudly blame the Palestinians for their obstructionism, and he would be unconditionally supported in that accusation by the Americans.

The entire point of forcing the Palestinians back into the "negotiations" is so that Israel can practice the crudest form of extortion i.e. sign away the settlements NOW, because the longer you wait the bigger those settlements will become.

You are dreaming if you honestly think that the Palestinians would ever be allowed to enter those negotiations with any sort of written assurance that they would not be strong-armed.

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RICK HUNTER

10:43 PM ET

January 31, 2012

Base is a useful idiot

Mondoweiss? Seriously?

FYI Base, 2 weeks ago a Security conference in Bahrain revealed who the Arabs really
afraid off and it wasn't Israel.

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/11325693-saudi-arabias-former-intelligence-chief-says-ksa-will-use-all-options-against-iran

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CHEVY

1:26 AM ET

February 1, 2012

Constantly insulting others shows that you have no arguments!!!

What I don't get here is that how on earth in the blogs of such a prestigious political magazine as FP some BASTARDS are allowed to constantly (maybe for months) quite unnecessarily offend other bloggers simply to either force their ideas through or to ruin the exchange of ideas and civilized debate. Obviously seems that these bastards hardly have any convincing arguments in the debate. If that's the case let's enjoy the show then!!!

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JOHNBOY4546

2:57 AM ET

February 1, 2012

"I like how he creates an imaginary scenario in his head,"

Hahahahahahahahahah! Ya' gotta admire the chutzpah of that statement!

I will now invite SNIPER to explain to me exactly how SABABA03's original post was in any way, shape or form anything other than "an imaginary scenario".

I do believe you will find that it was, and that should give you all the clues you need to understand why I posted as I did i.e. I pointed out to SABABA03 that
*if* the Palestinians did as he suggested
*then* Netanyahu would respond in the way that I suggest, and
*therefore* his original suggestion was not quite the slam-dunk that he believed it to be.

Got it, SNIPER?
Nooooooo, of course you don't.....

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JOHNBOY4546

6:42 AM ET

February 1, 2012

Context is everything, SNIPER

SNIPER: "I don't care what Sababa posted."

I will address this concept to others, since it flies waaaaay over SNIPER's head: my post was a r.e.s.p.o.n.s.e. to SABABA03's, and therefore there it is a waste of time and effort to examine my words unless you also willing to contemplate SAMAMA03's words.

After all, do to otherwise is to examine my post out of context, and doing that is the very definition of "pointless".

Still, SNIPER is incapable of grasping such a notion, ergo, there really is little point in engaging The Witless Wonder in any further discussion.

He is, simply put, not worth the effort.

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NEOLEFT

11:26 AM ET

February 1, 2012

Planet Sababa

>> 1. Much like his take on Camp David accord of 2000.

Much like it was documented in Shlomo Ben Ami's book too, and every subsequent independent account.

>> If Pals are smart, they would insert a simple clause to the condition of getting back to the negotiations. "Land with all existing improvements thereon".

Wouldn't make any difference. Israel don't want to give the land they stole back, so how does a new clause help the Palestinian's cause?

>> Everyone by now is convinced (That is, except this prof.) that this regime is danger to the stability of the region, and possibly to the rest of the word.

Correction: Everyone knows that Iran, which has not attacked oer invaded anyone in270 years, is not a threat to anyone. The only danger it poses it to US and Israeli hegemony.

>> As soon as the Syrian project is completed with the ouster of Basher, there is no doubt, the Arab revolution's domino effect with continue on to Tehran

On the contrary. As soon as the demonstations in Syria come to an end.

Despite ten month of attacks the Syrian state institutions and its military have held together well and there is no sign of any breakup.

With the UN way blocked and an open war unlikely the U.S. and its followers will try different ways to get Syria under their control. Most likely they will increase in the weapon flow to the rebels and intensify their training of more rebel groups in Turkey and Jordan. The Saudis and Qatar will continue to finance their Salafi gangs on the ground.

This conflict then will continue for quite some time but with the Syrian government now seemingly more aware and able to counter the rebels.

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NEOLEFT

11:28 AM ET

February 1, 2012

Real Stupidity from the Fake Marine

>> Iran is creeping its influence all throughout the middle east. Hezbollah, Hamas, Syria, Iraq, are all becoming or are Iranian proxies and client states.

Yeah, thanks to the US who handed Iraq to Iran on a plate and Israel, who created Hezbollah and Hamas through their own greed and stupidity.

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NEOLEFT

11:32 AM ET

February 1, 2012

RICK HUNTER, the useless idiot

>> Mondoweiss? Seriously?

allvoices.com Seriously?

>> FYI Base, 2 weeks ago a Security conference in Bahrain revealed who the Arabs really
afraid off and it wasn't Israel.

The Arabs? Polls of "the Arabs" in the Middle East show that they believe that it would be beneficial for Iran to have nukes.

The security conference was attended by the Sunni Royal Monarchies who had to brive their own populations not to take part in the arab Spring uprisings.

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TDYEN

12:38 PM ET

February 1, 2012

@USMARINESNIPER

@USMARINESNIPER R u a sniper or a troll? Constructive or just taking pot shots from the back seats.

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FORD2012

11:29 AM ET

February 9, 2012

The reality

The reality is that an increasingly decadent Israel blinked years ago. The Jewish State knows full well that they should have attacked Iran when the attacking was good. The most that could be accomplished now would be to hinder and temporarily delay Iran's nuclear weapons capability. Is that worth a major and complex air attack? Hmmm.

sciatic nerve pain

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SABABA03

1:25 AM ET

January 31, 2012

Most likey senario,

Since the west led by US had made it clear - closure of Hormuz straits will not be tolerated. US will move in with massive Navy force to test the Mullahs resolved,. Push them into lose-lose situations. Damn if they do, damn if they don't.

If they attack any US ship, US, France, GB & Israeli assets with have the perfect excuse to obliterate IRG's navy, and furthermore destroy their installations in Iran itself (No need to attack the fortified nuclear site).

However, If the regime does not act, they will lose face & credibility with the Iranian people, rendering them one who talks the big talk, and never walks the walk. An act which western Media and neighboring Arab states will exploit to denigrate these cowered Mullahs.

At the same time, it is plausible to conceive that, western intelligent services will intensify their activities to sabotage more Iranian key military installations there.

With its backbone the Revolutionary Guard which keeps this regime in power severely crippled, Iran's leadership will be weaken by the crowds pouring in the streets to finish the job which they had started in 2009. This time with the overt support of western power.

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BASE

2:51 AM ET

January 31, 2012

SABABA03

mmmmmhhhmmmmmm....damn you are misinformed. You are actually kind of amazing you are so misinformed. Or perhaps you are the misinformer?

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/NA31Ak02.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/12/washington/12navy.html

Obliterate. You keep believing that.

The only way to win this game is not to play...

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BASE

2:45 PM ET

January 31, 2012

USMARINESNIPER

1. We all know that you are not a Marine.
2. Apparently the US DOD disagreed with you, as the Millennium Challenge, which some say was fixed for an american victory, demonstrated that you, in fact, are totally wrong. This is the DOD.

So who is the 'idiot', you pathetic fuck.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/aug/21/usa.julianborger

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NEOLEFT

11:44 AM ET

February 1, 2012

Earth to SABABA03

"Since the west led by US had made it clear - closure of Hormuz straits will not be tolerated."

The closure of the Hormuz straits will only happen if Iran is attacked, in which case, who cares what the US wil tolerate by that stage?

"US will move in with massive Navy force to test the Mullahs resolved,. Push them into lose-lose situations. Damn if they do, damn if they don't."

Lose-lose means a lose-lose for the US as well. By that stage, oil will have hit $200, and the US economy will be in such a state that there will be riots in the streets.

"If they attack any US ship, US, France, GB & Israeli assets with have the perfect excuse to obliterate IRG's navy, and furthermore destroy their installations in Iran itself (No need to attack the fortified nuclear site)."

Oh yeah, another one of those cakewalks huh? Pitty about those war games that end up with US ships at the bottom of the Gulf.

"However, If the regime does not act, they will lose face & credibility with the Iranian people, rendering them one who talks the big talk, and never walks the walk."

Iran don't have to act. As we speak, the demise of the petro dollar has been accelerated by Washington's stupidity and slaveish response to Israel's orders. Oil will contionue to rise, Iran will continue to sell oil at the ihigher price to China, India, North Korea and Japan and the US economy will continue to tank.

A situation no doutb the Mullahs exploit to denigrate the West. As the Iranian parliament debates the bill on banning oil exports to the European Union, Germany has now urged Tehran to “exercise restrain.”

How's that for denigrating the West!!

"At the same time, it is plausible to conceive that, western intelligent services will intensify their activities to sabotage more Iranian key military installations there."

More terrorism you mean?

>> With its backbone the Revolutionary Guard which keeps this regime in power severely crippled, Iran's leadership will be weaken by the crowds pouring in the streets to finish the job which they had started in 2009. This time with the overt support of western power.

What a sublime idiot you are!! The involvement of Western Power is the kiss of death to any revolt. I'm sad to inform you that your wet drean of crowds pouring in the streets is more likely to take place in the US.

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NEOLEFT

11:46 AM ET

February 1, 2012

As a Fake Marine, you can't be taken seriously

The phalanx is nothing but a glorified gattling gun and doesn;t stand a chance against sea skimming anti ship missiles.

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NEOLEFT

1:40 AM ET

February 2, 2012

That makes two of us Fake Marine

The closest you would have come to being on a ship would have been a cruise.

>> Grow some balls and we can call you a real man some day.
Until then, you are a PLO hack who masturbating in your parents basement into a keffiyeh, dreaming of old Arafat sucking your tiny dick.

Still the unshakable fixation with other men's private parts I see Fake Marine.

Just come out fo the closet and be done with it.

>> The Phalanx system is pretty damn effective.

So are all wepoans systems tested in tests rigges to produce a favorable outcome.

>> It was used as Anti-Aircraft weapon for two decades or more.

Shooting down an aircraft and a supersonic missile are two different things.

>> If it can take out an incoming missile at mach 1, it can take out a speed boat going at 50-70 knots any day.

It hasn't been tested in a real life situation against an anti ship missile.

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JAMSB3

2:06 AM ET

January 31, 2012

I'm not going to shoot this dog.

War is cool, journalism is poor. Israel has power, America is reverb.

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TIMING

2:59 AM ET

January 31, 2012

lol...oh yes, the brutal isralis and the innocent palestinians

amazing how walt persists with this notion...a smear each time he makes it... totally lacking in all and any context. Its not even worth commenting on...its just so typical. I think he does it for spite though after having been soundly thashed in debates over and over...his harvard ego must just twist.....

iran with nukes is simply and incontrovertably a bad idea. Those who are either for iran having nukes or those that say they can be contained are plain nuts..... and then there are those that are in the camp of, "we can can't afford to deal with iran because of the economy" morons who evoke the disgraced chamberlain....

and what category does walt fall into? just what is his obsession with israel...and why is he not similary obsessed with any other countries who actually deserve the micro scrutiny???? nooooo, this is different for walt...of that I am 110% sure.

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JOHNBOY4546

3:01 AM ET

February 1, 2012

"totally lacking in all and any context"

TIMING, remind me one more time: who is the occupier, and who are the occupied?

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JOHNBOY4546

6:51 AM ET

February 1, 2012

The King Of Non-Sequiturs

SNIPER: "Lets ask the Kurds, Berbers, Assyrians, and Copts who are the occupiers and who is occupied."

Or, let's not, because neither the Kurds, nor the Berbers, nor the Assyrians nor the Copts have a standing army encamped in the West Bank.

Israel does, though, so maybe we should ask them.

Oh, look, here's their reply: Israel High Court of Justice, 2005: "Since 1967, Israel has been holding the areas of Judea and Samaria [hereinafter - the area] in belligerent occupation."

SNIPER: "They might agree with the Israelis that the Arabs should go back to Arabia from whence they came."

Errrr, SNIPER, I don't like to rain on your parade, but questions regarding the "rightful" demographic distribution of Arab civilian populations is not *actually* part of the definition of "a belligerent occupation".

I think you will find that the question:
Who is Occupying Whom?
revolves around working out:
Hey, Whose Army Is That, And What Is It Doing There?

Sorry, but that's just the way it is....

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NEOLEFT

11:52 AM ET

February 1, 2012

Anyone with nukes is a bad idea Timing

The thing about Iran is that it's not making them or eve trying.

>> Those who are either for iran having nukes or those that say they can be contained are plain nuts.

Who are those for iran having nukes? And given that both Barak and Panetta agree Iran is not making nukes, what is there to contain anyway?

>> morons who evoke the disgraced chamberlain....

The morons are those who keep bringing up chamberlain when the fact is that chamberlain's mistake was to allow Hitler to have Czekoslovakia...you know, like letting Israel have the West Bank.

>> just what is his obsession with israel...and why is he not similary obsessed with any other countries who actually deserve the micro scrutiny???? nooooo, this is different for walt...of that I am 110% sure.

What is it with you appearing on every blog by Walt pretainign to Israel? Why are you not similary obsessed with any other countries who actually deserve the micro scrutiny???

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JOHNBOY4546

12:21 AM ET

February 2, 2012

Such nonsense, SNIPER

SNIPER: "oh and the palestinaians never had the west bank or gaza to begin with."

That sentence is utterly nonsensical.

Prior to the WW1 the people who lived here were under the sovereign rule of the Ottoman Empire i.e. they had a sovereign, and his name was the Sultan.

But that sovereign rule ended in 1921, when the Turks (i.e. the successor state to the Ottoman Empire) signed away its sovereignty to this territory via the Treaty of Lausanne.

From that point on all the territories that were formally provinces of the Ottoman Empire ceased to *be* provinces, and became countries in their own right i.e. sovereignty devolved TO THE PEOPLE WHO LIVED THERE.

Q: So who were the sovereigns of the West Bank and Gaza?
A: The people of the West Bank and Gaza.

Q: What about the British Mandate 1921-1948?
A: It was a Mandatory Power, it was not a Sovereign Power.

Q: What about the Egyptians and the Jordanians 1948-1967?
A: They were Occupying Powers, they were not Sovereign Powers.

You appear to be completly unaware of the distinction between:
1) "authority", which can be held by Sovereign Powers, Mandatory Powers, Occupying Powers, etc.
2) "sovereignty", which can only be held by a Sovereign Power.

SNIPER: "oh and the palestinaians never had the west bank or gaza to begin with."

The weasel-word in that sentence is "had", which you are equating with "sovereignty" because you are completely unaware that you are really talking about "authority".

Or, in short: you are an idiot who does not know what he is talking about.

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NEOLEFT

1:43 AM ET

February 2, 2012

No need to be sorry Fake Marine

But the Palestinians are from Palestine, not Saudi Arabia.

The Palestinaisn were the original Hebrews who later convertd to Islam which is hwy they share the same genetics as the indigenous Jews.

>> They occupied the middle east and now got their asses kicked by a handful of Jews.

False, but continue.

>> The occupation of the middle east by the Arabs should end. Let them go to Arabia.

And the occupation of Palestine by Jews Israel should also end,

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JOHNBOY4546

6:25 AM ET

February 2, 2012

SNIPER is such an angry little man, isn't he?

SNIPER: "Sorry, but that is political theory nonsense. The lands were under british control and in all rights British Sovereignty"

Again, sniper reveals that he has no concept of the distinction between "authority" and "sovereignty".

If Palestine was under British sovereignty in 1922 then it would have been a "British possession", rather than being a "Mandated Territory".

Yet it was a Mandated Territory. How odd.

And the authority that the Mandatory had over that Mandated Territory was not one of supreme rule (e.g. as in the case of a "sovereign" and his "subjects").

Rather, that authority was precisely defined in the terms of the Mandate for Palestine. How odd.

And in that Mandate text you will find "Palestine" being described as "a country" no less than eleven times. How odd.

So where does that Mandate for Palestine draw its legitimacy?

According to the Mandate text its legitimacy derives from Article 22 of the League of Nations Covenant.

A document that sniper has apparently never read, because this is what Article 22 says:
"To those colonies and territories which as a consequence of the late war have ceased to be under the sovereignty of the States which formerly governed them and which are inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, there should be applied the principle that the well-being and development of such peoples form a sacred trust of civilisation and that securities for the performance of this trust should be embodied in this Covenant."

Anyone with a brain (sorry, sniper) would see that this is acknowleging a fact i.e. that following the breakup of the Ottoman Empire the sovereignty of those territories is now in the hands of the people who live there, and the task of the Mandatory is not to Be The New Sovereign but to assist those people in getting their shit together.

Article 22 makes that even more explicit here:
"Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone."

Wot' I just said, heh?

SNIPER: "All your bullshit about the land being given to the people is nonsense."

Look above, sunshine, and you'll see who the ignorant is. Hint: it ain't me.

SNIPER: "Second, The land was filled with Jews and Arabs at that time."

Noooooooo, actually, at the time that I am talking about the number of Jews wouldn't have "filled" a small-town town-hall.

SNIPER: "Sorry, but again, if the Palestinians had sovereignty, then I want to know the name of the first Palestinian president, the name and picture of the Palestinian currency, a few names of Palestinian Army divisions, and maybe a map of the borders that the Palestinian state made up."

*sigh* I'm talking to a brick wall, because Sniper has once again demonstrated his lack of comprehension of the distinction between "authority" and "sovereignty".

One More Time For The Slow Coach: Once the Ottoman Empire dissolved then so did its sovereignty over the people who lived in this region.

That sovereignty has to *go* somewhere, and where it goes is obvious: it goes to the people who live there, which is a concept that in modern-day terms we call "the right to self-determination".

It certainly can not be seized by whatever foreign power has the military power to Claim This Territory In The Name Of His Majesty, because even by 1921 that concept had outlived its welcome.

That's why your argument is a pointless one i.e. both the League of Nations and the Mandate for Palestine recognized that s.o.v.e.r.e.i.g.n.t.y. resided with the inhabitants, even if a Mandatory was appointed to run the show.

The analogy is, again, a trusteeship: the assets are under the MANAGEMENT of an assigned trustee, but those assets always BELONG to the beneficiaries, not to the trustee.

In an analogous way the Mandatory had "authority" over the territory, but he did not have "sovereignty" over it.

Or, put another way: he "ruled", but he did not "reign".

And this is all news to you, is it?

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NEOLEFT

6:51 AM ET

February 2, 2012

The Palestinians were given the West Bank under UNGAR181

>> Sorry, but after British occupation, the west bank and gaza went under egyptian and jordanian control.

So what?

>> So its not their "soverign land" just because they say so.

Nor is it part of Israel.

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NEOLEFT

7:14 AM ET

February 2, 2012

The British never claimed soverreignty of over Palestine

So I don't know why you insist it the land was under British Sovereignty.

>> ...Ruled by a British overlord, run by British law, security and police by British armed forces, and using currency created and controlled by Britain.

False. Palestine was administered by the British under the authority of the Mandate.

>> Second, The land was filled with Jews and Arabs at that time.

10 times as many Arabs to be exact.

>> Did every single owner of land in Palestine have their own "sovereignty"?

No, they had property entitlements.

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NEOLEFT

7:23 AM ET

February 2, 2012

It'ssimply history Fake Marine

>> No they weren't you fucking idiot. The Palestinians are Arabs. Arabs came from Arabia originally and invaded the middle east.

Rubbish. The Palestinians are descendents of the Hebrews who converte to Islam. Less than 10% of the Palestinians migrated to Palestine Mandate.

>> even the Palestinian national hero Izz e din Al Qassam (of whom the Qassam Rocket is named for) was born and raised in SYRIA, and later migrated to Palestine.

So what? Most of Israel's Prime Ministers were not born in Israel either.

>> Winston Churchill said in 1939: “So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population.”

Cute, but Churchill was wrong, and the census conducted for the British Mandate proved it.

The Palestinians outnumbered the Jews in Palestine at the turn of the century by 10:1. There was no reason at the time for the Arabs to have crowded into the country, though it is true that the population grew through natural growth.

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JOHNBOY4546

11:09 AM ET

February 2, 2012

NEOLEFT, I keep saying it, coz' it's true

SNIPER keeps bandying around the word "sovereignty" because he doesn't understand what that word means.

He therefore uses the word "sovereignty" in the same way that Humpty Dumpty uses words i.e. "When I use a word it means exactly what I want it to mean, neither more nor less".

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JOHNBOY4546

11:38 PM ET

February 2, 2012

SNIPER asks an stupendously stupid question.

SNIPER: "How was british rule not "supreme" when they provided all the functions of government and their own law applied?"

It is not a "sovereign" rule (not "supreme", which you just threw up) when the "rules" are defined by someone other than the organization that is doing the "ruling".

As in: Britain was not free to rule Palestine as it wished, because it had to rule Palestine under the terms that were defined for it by the articles of Mandate.

Or, put another way: if the Mandate text told Britain that it had to do *this*, and *that*, and the *other* then that's what the Mandatory had to do.

And that's not "sovereignty".
That's a a "trusteeship".

SNIPER: "The only difference was what? The people couldn't vote? "

*sigh*

The right of the citizenry to vote is not part of the definition of "sovereignty".
It is part of the definition of "democracy".

SNIPER: "That the british pretended they were going to leave at some undetermined time....Great."

*sigh*

The Mandate for Palestine was only one of many Mandates handed out following the end of WW1, and in every case the way in which a Mandate ends was known in advance i.e. the Mandate ends when the people who were being tutered by the Mandatory were capable of becoming independent i.e. the Mandate leaves, and what it leaves behind is an INDEPENDENT sovereign state.

Which leads to this question:
Q: What was it before the Mandatory leaves?
A: It is a sovereign state that is being ruled by the Mandatory.

There's nothing particularly unusual about that e.g. a belligerent occupation involves the separation of "authority" from "sovereignty", precisely because an Army of Occupation seizes the former but not the latter.

The point is this: in all cases where "sovereignty" and "authority" are separated then we are dealing with something that is BY DESIGN supposed to be tempory.

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JOHNBOY4546

11:38 PM ET

February 2, 2012

SNIPER asks an stupendously stupid question.

SNIPER: "How was british rule not "supreme" when they provided all the functions of government and their own law applied?"

It is not a "sovereign" rule (not "supreme", which you just threw up) when the "rules" are defined by someone other than the organization that is doing the "ruling".

As in: Britain was not free to rule Palestine as it wished, because it had to rule Palestine under the terms that were defined for it by the articles of Mandate.

Or, put another way: if the Mandate text told Britain that it had to do *this*, and *that*, and the *other* then that's what the Mandatory had to do.

And that's not "sovereignty".
That's a a "trusteeship".

SNIPER: "The only difference was what? The people couldn't vote? "

*sigh*

The right of the citizenry to vote is not part of the definition of "sovereignty".
It is part of the definition of "democracy".

SNIPER: "That the british pretended they were going to leave at some undetermined time....Great."

*sigh*

The Mandate for Palestine was only one of many Mandates handed out following the end of WW1, and in every case the way in which a Mandate ends was known in advance i.e. the Mandate ends when the people who were being tutered by the Mandatory were capable of becoming independent i.e. the Mandate leaves, and what it leaves behind is an INDEPENDENT sovereign state.

Which leads to this question:
Q: What was it before the Mandatory leaves?
A: It is a sovereign state that is being ruled by the Mandatory.

There's nothing particularly unusual about that e.g. a belligerent occupation involves the separation of "authority" from "sovereignty", precisely because an Army of Occupation seizes the former but not the latter.

The point is this: in all cases where "sovereignty" and "authority" are separated then we are dealing with something that is BY DESIGN supposed to be tempory.

  REPLY
 

JOHNBOY4546

11:45 PM ET

February 2, 2012

SNIPER asks me to read something he doesn't understand

SNIPER: "The process of establishing the mandates consisted of two phases:"
SNIPER: "1 the formal removal of sovereignty of the state previously controlling the territory"
SNIPER: "2 the transfer of mandatory powers to individual states among the Allied Powers"

Hands up anyone who can see what SNIPER has just missed.

You.
Yes, you up the back.
What did SNIPER miss?

Correct! SNIPER did not notice that
(1) dealt with "sovereign powers", while
(2) dealt with "mandatory powers",
and therefore they Can Not Be One And The Same Thing.

The Ottoman Empire lost its sovereignty over this territory, and it did so when it signed the Treaty of Lausanne.

Q: Where did that sovereignty go?
A: Not to the Mandatory, that's for sure.

Q: How do we know that?
A: Because Britain was only granted "mandatory power", not "sovereign power"

Q: And that difference is.....?
A: Much the same as the difference between an "occupying power" and a "sovereign power".

Q: Which is.....?
A: It gives you the right to "rule", but not to "reign".

  REPLY
 

JOHNBOY4546

11:55 PM ET

February 2, 2012

Look, I'll try this one more time.....

SNIPER: "PROVISIONALLY recognized independence. NOT FORMAL Independence nor actual independence, as was the case with the mandate of Palestine. Not the ability to stand alone or govern itself. "

*sigh*

Sniper once more (how many is this? I've lost count) shown that he still does not understand the difference between "authority" and "sovereignty".

At no stage have I claimed that Palestine has ever been an INDEPENDENT state.
Not once. Not ever.

What I have claimed is that SOVEREIGNTY over Palestine went to the Palestinians in 1921, and they have possessed it ever since, and therefore the SOVEREIGN state of Palestine has been a reality since the day the treaty of Lausanne was signed.

That you are sovereign does not necessarily mean that you are able to exercise that sovereignty i.e. that you can exercise "independence".

Even a moment's thought will tell you that this is true, because it is axiomatic that any country that has been occupied by a foreign army has just lost its ability to exercise "independence" from the diktats of that Army of Occupation.

From 1921 to This Very Day the Palestinians have never had "independence", because there has always been s.o.m.e.b.o.d.y. who has pointed a gun at them to prevent them from showing any independence.

1921-1948 it was The British Army.
1948-1967 it was The Royal Jordanian Army.
1967-2012 it was the Israel Defence Force.

But that they have never been "independent" does not mean that they have never been "sovereign".

They were.
They are.

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SIN NOMBRE

9:07 AM ET

January 31, 2012

Interesting piece

For those so interested there is a new and what I at least thought was a very thoughtful and lucid piece on the Iranian war issue here:

http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/01/27/a_real_debate_about_iran

From the Israeli perspective especially, is nicely analytical I thought.

  REPLY
 

CHARYBDIS

7:55 PM ET

January 31, 2012

Israel, Iran

Thank you, for this link!

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RO_P

4:16 PM ET

January 31, 2012

I may not know much...

...but I do know this, any US action in Iran had better be based on something more than speculation and estimates. We've already done this WMD dance once and I'm pretty darn sure before we do it again it had better be incontravertible evidence. And I'm talking more than one dude in a dark room talking to some other dude who tells another guy who tells a reporter. There had better be video footage (and not digital because that can be easily doctored) and a sworn statement (yeah I know but you get what I mean).

BTW you can't really remove a threat like that from the air alone. You're going to have to put boots on the ground, and guess what, the Iranians will fight much harder than the Iraqis. Casualties will mount and at a much higher rate than what we've seen in the recent past. The Iranians have been watching and developing TTPs based on what they've seen in the last 10 years. You think they don't have "improved" EFPs and possibly IEDs to deny helicopters from inserting troops. The clustiferousness of anything we do in Iran will be on a level above everything we've seen. And that's before we even talk about the Iranian agents poised all over the map waiting for something like this to happen.

Oh and one last thing... I doubt an single Israeli soldier would be on line with me in this fight. I'm not questioning their bravery, but if they were to trigger an operation in Iran they'd be busy at home dealing with problems there.

I don't hate Israel, but I'm not going to orphan my kids because one country has a beef with another one.

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NEOLEFT

12:03 PM ET

February 1, 2012

Just ignore the Fake Marine RO_P

he's not really a Marine, but an Israeli porpagandist and he could care less if your kids were orphaned for his country.

>> If you are a servicemember then you take an oath and you obey orders. The choice of where and when you go to war is not yours.

Yeah right, except that this excuse didn't wash at Nuremberg.

>> Iran poses a threat to regional stability just like Iraq did in 1990.

Absolue rubbish of course. Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990. Iran has not invaded or attacked anyone in 270 years. Meanwhile, Israel has attacked and invaded every country on it's border.

>> The straights have to be kept open. And, no one power can be the regional hegemony, especially if it is not aligned with the United States.

Becaus we all know that the United States owns the world.

>> Iran extending its control over shiite Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Hamas, etc. is gaining too much influence and power vis a vis the US and we don't like that.

Yes, people like the Fake Marine, who's combat experience means time spent on his Playstation console, don't like it when now white people get too big for their boots.

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NEOLEFT

9:24 AM ET

February 2, 2012

That's right, Iran not invaded or attacked anyone in 270 years

>> Except that they have a proxy army in Lebanon (Hezbollah) which is controlled and trained by the Iranian Revolutionary guards.

Trained perhaps. Controlled, no.

>> Or that they have security agents in Syria right now, putting down the popular uprising.

Why would Syria need Iranian security agents to put down the popular uprising, when:

a) it's not that popular and
b) the Syrian government is manahing to put it down without any problem?

>> Or that they infiltrated Iraq with revolutionary guards and armed and trained the shiite militias there.

Yes idiot, the country is run by militias and the shiite militias are running it becasue the US habded them the country on a plate.

>> Oh, but does switzerland also have someplace like Evin prison, where men and women are systematically tortured, raped, and executed for political dissent?

You mean like in Israel?

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CHARYBDIS

5:49 PM ET

January 31, 2012

Of course we don't know for sure

Of course we don't know for sure what is true here. Prof. Walt writes: "There are lots of obvious reasons why Israeli officials might want to exaggerate their willingness to use force against Iran, and this simple fact makes it unwise to take their testimony at face value. Maybe they really mean what they say. Or maybe they just want to keep Tehran off-balance Maybe they want to distract everyone from their continued expansion of West Bank settlements and other brutalities against Palestinians. etc".

Yes, of course there are lots of possibilities. Maybe the Israelis are bluffing.

BUT: It has happened before. Osirak, and The Syrian business. The long series of assasinations regarding Iranian nuclear scientists tells us that Bibi's henchmen really are convinced that Iran is going to get nukes.

So, don't be too amazed if, or when, it happens again, i.e. a powerful attack on the Iranian nuclear facilities. With or without consent from the White House.

  REPLY
 

TIMING

8:18 PM ET

January 31, 2012

blood and treasure

lets get it straight people...its the israelis who have in fact sacrificed their blood and treasure for just about all free western democracies...including the US.

the US has never sacrificed its so called blood and treasure for israel and you know what? Israel has never asked them to...iran will be a shared sacrifice and most of the it will be absorbed by israel. This whole blood and treasure trope has slowly but surely been the new state dept crap guided by the WH and obama. Its wrong, its false and its an attempt to change the paradigm...its exactly what jesse jackson said obama would try to do.

per iran, now you have panetta the stoooge saying how iran is now 2-3 yrs away because of "deliverables"....its amazing how this admin just keeps changing the red lines in order to protect this pro muslim president who ONLY cares about himself and his re'election. You hear it in all the talking heads lately...panetta, clapper, petraeus...the timelines are being moved back to after the 2012 elections knowing that if they can do that and win election, they will never confront iran...they will attempt to contain it and the hell with their many allies in the ME...this was never about israel exclusively.... obama will go down as the worst president ever and one who was responsible for the most savage middle east war to date...possibly inflaming countries all over the world....way to go obie...short term selfish thinking placing your selfish political goals ahead of true leadership.

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NEOLEFT

12:09 PM ET

February 1, 2012

Israel has not sacrificed blood and treasure for anyone

but themselves.

Which is how it should be.

Israel had never sacrificed its so called blood and treasure for the US and you know what? The US has never asked them to...

>> iran will be a shared sacrifice and most of the it will be absorbed by israel.

No way in the world. Israel can't even reach Iran, let alone drop any troops on Iranian soil. What the US wants is the US to fight a war with Iran on their behalf.

>> per iran, now you have panetta the stoooge saying how iran is now 2-3 yrs away because of "deliverables"

No, Panetta said they weren't workign on nukes at all.

>> ....its amazing how this admin just keeps changing the red lines in order to protect this pro muslim president who ONLY cares about himself and his re'election.

It;'s not amazing. It's simply a case of the Iranians calling Washington's bluff. The growing consensus among ruling elite in the US and Europe is that a war with Iran would be a bad idea. Meir Dagan and even the current head of Mossad concur.

>> this was never about israel exclusively.... obama will go down as the worst president ever and one who was responsible for the most savage middle east war to date...possibly inflaming countries all over the world....way to go obie...short term selfish thinking placing your selfish political goals ahead of true leadership.

No, that mantle will always belong to Bush Jnr. After all, it was he who handed Iraq to Iran on a plate.

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TIMING

4:06 PM ET

February 1, 2012

sorry to burst your bubble neoscum

panetta has said that iran is working on nuclear weapons...quite clearly. Panetta has been carefully parsing his words though to suggest they are not yet "building" the first bomb, merely assembling the necessary parts and technology...then he further parses his words when he starts to talk of "deliverables"... .....truth be told, panetta knows full well what developments the iranians have been making in their ballistic missile capabilities ....deliverables aren't a year or 2 away....that's diplomatic speak and political cover for pushing this thing past the elections in 2012...

all in all, this admin is totally transparent in where it is going and iran knows it...obama is weak and will do anything to avoid showing great leadership in what will become in our time, the most important decision we face. No one says it will be clean or easy...but, to allow iran to go nuclear will bring about eventually, whether its in a year or 3, a greater conflagration...obama in my estimation is driving this whole issue towards 2 things; containment and a nuclear free ME...both of which are pipedreams.

the ONLY thing preserving the wider peace in the region has been, undeniably, israels nuclear capacity. Only nuclear imbalance preserves the peace in the region...theories like MAD will simply never hold up in the ME.

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Stephen M. Walt is the Robert and Renée Belfer professor of international relations at Harvard University.

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